Talk:Triple Gold Club
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Potential members
[edit]Inclusions in this list should be limited to active players and coaches. This is a table to see who might join the Triple Gold Club someday (which can't happen after a player is retired), and the very large number of retired players who have won two out of three would make the table size otherwise impractically large. Entries can be removed from this list if they definitively announce their retirement from professional/international hockey, or if there is general consensus that a player is beyond the end of their career but without a formal retirement announcement. Edits for the latter case are encouraged to ask for feedback before submitting updates.--Irregulargalaxies (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Players
[edit]
Coaches
[edit]First, let me point out that I have no idea what the IIHF's rules are when it comes to coaches. Since Babcock's role at the 2004 World Championships was as an assistant, I think it's safe to assume that roles as both head and assistant coach are included. There are a few odd cases out there of players winning the Olympics as a player, then the Worlds as a coach. Or, in the case of Vyacheslav Bykov, both as a player, then the worlds as a coach. There's also the strange case of Vladimír Růžička. He was a part of the 1990 Stanley Cup winning Edmonton Oilers, but didn't play enough games to get his name on the cup. He did, however, get a ring and was in the team picture. He then won a gold with the Czechs in 1998 as a player. As a coach, he led the Czechs to a World Championship in 2010.
This isn't a definitive list, but here are some coaches that have won 2 of the 3 as either a head coach or assistant coach.
- Bengt-Åke Gustafsson (Sweden) won Olympic gold in 2006 and IIHF World Championship in 2006
- Ken Hitchcock (Canada): won Stanley Cup in 1999 (Dallas Stars) and Olympic gold in 2002 and 2010 (assistant coach)
- Jacques Lemaire (Canada): won Stanley Cup in 1995 (New Jersey Devils) and won Olympic gold in 2010 (assistant coach)
- Per Mårts (Sweden): won Olympic gold (assistant coach) in 1994. Won World Championship in 1992 (assistant coach) and 2013.
- Jukka Jalonen (Finland): won IIHF World Championship in 2011, 2019, 2022 and Olympic gold in 2022
As I remember (the source article is probably buried in the depths of iihf.com), Mike Babcock was not an assistant at the 2004 World Championships. Joel Quenneville was announced to lead the team, but he suddenly became ill and Babcock replaced him as the coach. So I think to be an assistant is not enough to enter the TGC eventually. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.177.130.40 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
THE LIST OF COACHES: I think, that only active head coaches should be listed. So Bengt-Åke Gustafsson and Oleg Znarok just now. But this is nearly an academic debate, the chance of European chach to be the head coach of an NHL team is very small... 78.45.138.34 (talk) 16:14, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
And, of course Jukka Jalonen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.102.34.102 (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Hall of Fame
[edit]Two of these players have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. For the purpose of this list though, wouldn't IIHF's Hall of Fame be more relevant than NHL's Hall of Fame? The NHL list seems quite Canada-focused with 222 of 244 players being from Canada. They surely are a great hockey nation, but the IIHF's membership base is a lot more evenly spread and would probably be a fairer assessment of skill for the Soviet/Russian and European players. Lejman (talk) 22:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- The IIHF Hall of Fame tends to lean more towards play in international competitions like the Olympics and world championships. You have to remember that a key component in this club is the Stanley Cup, the NHL's championship. Even if it does tend to lean more towards Canada, it does still induct international players (it doesn't help your argument when the only two club members inducted are from Russia). -- Scorpion0422 23:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- I have had the thought myself, but adding an IIHF key instead of replacing seems to make more sense. Since there are no NHL-HHOF-only members on the list (both Russians are IIHF-HHOF members too), only two colours are needed in the end. For now. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 03:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- That the two inducted are Soviets rather than Canadians is probably more related to the fact that they quit earlier. 3 of the 5 Canadians are still active, the other two retired in 2009. Though I agree that the Stanley Cup is an important part of the award, and that a lot of skillful players have missed the other medals because of peculiar rules regarding amateurism, a group with 91% Canadians is very unlikely to have assembled the best players in the world irrespective of nationality. I like Bamsefar's solution though, and approve implementing his notion.Lejman (talk) 15:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
- For a Hall of Fame to be included here, it should be open to players from the NHL and international competitions. The IIHF Hall of Fame generally doesn't induct players from just the NHL. Check out the inductees [1], only a few of the Canadian players (Gretzky, Lemieux and Harry Sinden) are known mostly for NHL careers (and only a handful of the international players spent any significant time in the NHL). Now, considering that 1/3 of the required championships is the Stanley Cup, does it really seem right to include a Hall of Fame that largely ignores the accomplishments of players from the league? It's true that the Hockey Hall of Fame does generally go for the NHL (it's not surprising), but it is open to international players as well. If you want, I suppose the HHOF could be removed, though I'd rather leave it in there. -- Scorpion0422 01:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- I see how the NHL Hall of Fame is more relevant as far as NHL experience goes. Based on who they have inducted, IIHF Hall of Fame seems more relevant as far as World Championship and Olympic experience goes. They do both to some extent overlook accomplishments made elsewhere. Some players have been mostly successful in the NHL, some have been mostly successful in international play (and some actually have been mostly successful in other leagues). Being successful in both the NHL and in international play is required to join the Triple Gold Club. I don't think either Hall of Fame needs to be included in the article, but would prefer the inclusion of both to give a view of both aspects of the players' accomplishments.Lejman (talk) 05:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Inducting solely on NHL experience may is relevant to Hall of Fames in general, but to achieve Triple Gold Club, international experience is important too. (It's, for logical reasons, impossible to obtain Triple Gold Club without playing important international competitions.) Stanley Cup is indeed important, which is a limitation of IIHF's hall of Fame, as it mainly covers 2/3 of the Club's championships. On the other hand, Stanley Cup only covers 1/3 and is highly lopsided towards NHL players. (The Hockey Hall of Fame page mentions this.) I would prefer including both Hall of Fames as they sort of complement each other, but it is true neither covers all three aspects well, so we can go with suggestion instead.Lejman (talk) 23:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- There is a difference though. The Hockey Hall of Fame (the fact that you never tried to get their name right shows you're biased against it) is open to both NHL & international players (well, in theory). However, the IIHF Hall of Fame is specifically for international play. I've never been a big fan of the "if I can't get my way let's just remove everything" line of thinking. -- Scorpion0422 03:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about just removing it all together? —Krm500 (Communicate!) 01:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Removing it altogether is an option that works. I think I've been clear that I think the Hockey Hall of Fame and IIHF Hall of Fame together complement each other, but that neither in itself is open enough for other players. Lisiting only one of them makes it lopsided. I'd prefer including both, but neither is necessarily needed, so including neither makes sense too. This doesn't have to become a discussion on 'bias' or 'my way' etc. It's more than clear that I've been trying to discuss this.Lejman (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- We should only include HoFs open to everyone. Otherwise, why not also include the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame, which would highlight the Canadian players, and also complement the Hockey Hall of Fame? -- Scorpion0422 18:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- To accomplish the triple gold feat, competing at the top level internationally is required. Players whose accomplishments are solely within the NHL and who are overlooked by the IIHF Hall of Fame are not eligible for the Triple Gold Club anyway. There's limited information about the IIHF Hall of Fame, so I haven't been able to find sources supporting its overlooking of league accomplishments, but regardless its short existance and limited memberlist means it's still likely to be missing big players. As far as the Hockey Hall of Fame goes, there's several sources stating it's more of a NHL Hall of Fame and that there are few players who have never played there who have been inducted. Trusting your statement that the IIHF is biased towards international competition, neither Hall of Fame is focusing equally on the three championships. The name of The Hockey Hall of Fame proudly implies it's "The" Hockey Hall of Fame (which I don't mind, I think it's cool), but may be a cause for confusion for those who do not know the HoF's origin. (I'm not sure that's a problem among Canadians or Americans, but possibly among Europeans.) After IIHF formalized the Triple Gold Club - which led to us awaiting their approval of Babcock's inclusion as the first TGC Coach - they are now technically the 'official source' behind the club, which means people can mistake "The Hockey Hall of Fame" to refer to their hall of fame. With IIHF becoming the official source I originally thought it would be better to replace the Hockey Hall of Fame with IIHF's Hall of Fame. As I trust the notion that the IIHF Hall of Fame leans more toward Olympic and WC competitions, both HoF's come across as limited in scope. Despite The Hockey Hall of Fame's occasional induction of players who never played in the NHL, they certainly have a bigger focus on accomplishments within the NHL than international accomplishments. It's fair, it's their thing, it also means they aren't focusing equally on the three aspects of the TGC. I can appreciate the point of including the Hockey Hall of Fame in the article to balance IIHF Hall of Fame, but on their own the focus on accomplishments within the NHL strongly outweights the focus on accomplishments within the world championships and olympics when the focus should be split 1:1:1 among the three competitions. - Lejman (talk) 23:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your first statement isn't true though. There are lots of NHL players who have accomplished a lot in international play who aren't in the IIHF Hall of Fame. And the same is true of the HHOF as well (but it doesn't help your argmument when the only two club members who have been inducted are both Russians who accomplished more internationally than they did in the NHL). Besides, I don't see why including the one Hall of Fame is so horrible. Right now there are only two, but as more club members become eligible, it will help show how exclusive the club is (looking through, there are 8 members that are pretty much locks for induction, and a few others who have a strong chance). Looking through your arguments, I see more of a bias against the HHOF than anything. Yes, there are a lot of NHLers in there, but can you really blame a North American-based Hall of Fame for predominantly inducting players from the largest & most prestigious hockey league in the world? Is it a coincidence that the only three club members inducted into the IIHFHOF are Swedish players, and you happen to be from Sweden? -- Scorpion0422 18:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- To be honest I had to double check. You're right, discounting the two Russians who are in NAHOF as well, all 3 IIHFHOF so far are Swedes. I don't blame the NAHOF for being NA focused. I simply don't see that their bias toward NHL is smaller than IIHFHOF's bias toward international play. To me it seems illogical to list a Hall of Fame when there is an official Hall of Fame, belonging to the entity in charge of the club, that is being excluded. That is why I bother.Lejman (talk) 06:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Your first statement isn't true though. There are lots of NHL players who have accomplished a lot in international play who aren't in the IIHF Hall of Fame. And the same is true of the HHOF as well (but it doesn't help your argmument when the only two club members who have been inducted are both Russians who accomplished more internationally than they did in the NHL). Besides, I don't see why including the one Hall of Fame is so horrible. Right now there are only two, but as more club members become eligible, it will help show how exclusive the club is (looking through, there are 8 members that are pretty much locks for induction, and a few others who have a strong chance). Looking through your arguments, I see more of a bias against the HHOF than anything. Yes, there are a lot of NHLers in there, but can you really blame a North American-based Hall of Fame for predominantly inducting players from the largest & most prestigious hockey league in the world? Is it a coincidence that the only three club members inducted into the IIHFHOF are Swedish players, and you happen to be from Sweden? -- Scorpion0422 18:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- To accomplish the triple gold feat, competing at the top level internationally is required. Players whose accomplishments are solely within the NHL and who are overlooked by the IIHF Hall of Fame are not eligible for the Triple Gold Club anyway. There's limited information about the IIHF Hall of Fame, so I haven't been able to find sources supporting its overlooking of league accomplishments, but regardless its short existance and limited memberlist means it's still likely to be missing big players. As far as the Hockey Hall of Fame goes, there's several sources stating it's more of a NHL Hall of Fame and that there are few players who have never played there who have been inducted. Trusting your statement that the IIHF is biased towards international competition, neither Hall of Fame is focusing equally on the three championships. The name of The Hockey Hall of Fame proudly implies it's "The" Hockey Hall of Fame (which I don't mind, I think it's cool), but may be a cause for confusion for those who do not know the HoF's origin. (I'm not sure that's a problem among Canadians or Americans, but possibly among Europeans.) After IIHF formalized the Triple Gold Club - which led to us awaiting their approval of Babcock's inclusion as the first TGC Coach - they are now technically the 'official source' behind the club, which means people can mistake "The Hockey Hall of Fame" to refer to their hall of fame. With IIHF becoming the official source I originally thought it would be better to replace the Hockey Hall of Fame with IIHF's Hall of Fame. As I trust the notion that the IIHF Hall of Fame leans more toward Olympic and WC competitions, both HoF's come across as limited in scope. Despite The Hockey Hall of Fame's occasional induction of players who never played in the NHL, they certainly have a bigger focus on accomplishments within the NHL than international accomplishments. It's fair, it's their thing, it also means they aren't focusing equally on the three aspects of the TGC. I can appreciate the point of including the Hockey Hall of Fame in the article to balance IIHF Hall of Fame, but on their own the focus on accomplishments within the NHL strongly outweights the focus on accomplishments within the world championships and olympics when the focus should be split 1:1:1 among the three competitions. - Lejman (talk) 23:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- We should only include HoFs open to everyone. Otherwise, why not also include the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame, which would highlight the Canadian players, and also complement the Hockey Hall of Fame? -- Scorpion0422 18:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Removing it altogether is an option that works. I think I've been clear that I think the Hockey Hall of Fame and IIHF Hall of Fame together complement each other, but that neither in itself is open enough for other players. Lisiting only one of them makes it lopsided. I'd prefer including both, but neither is necessarily needed, so including neither makes sense too. This doesn't have to become a discussion on 'bias' or 'my way' etc. It's more than clear that I've been trying to discuss this.Lejman (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- For a Hall of Fame to be included here, it should be open to players from the NHL and international competitions. The IIHF Hall of Fame generally doesn't induct players from just the NHL. Check out the inductees [1], only a few of the Canadian players (Gretzky, Lemieux and Harry Sinden) are known mostly for NHL careers (and only a handful of the international players spent any significant time in the NHL). Now, considering that 1/3 of the required championships is the Stanley Cup, does it really seem right to include a Hall of Fame that largely ignores the accomplishments of players from the league? It's true that the Hockey Hall of Fame does generally go for the NHL (it's not surprising), but it is open to international players as well. If you want, I suppose the HHOF could be removed, though I'd rather leave it in there. -- Scorpion0422 01:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
There you go with that "NAHOF" nonsense again. The fact that you aren't even bothering to try to get the name right shows you're against it. Okay, let's look at this in terms of future inductees. The eight players I see as virtual locks for the Hockey Hall of Fame are: Forsberg, Blake, Sakic, Shanahan, Niedermayer, Pronger, Jagr and Lidstrom. Mogilny also has a good shot. For the IIHFHOF, you can cross out pretty much everyone but Forsberg, Jagr and Mogilny, and add Fetisov and Larionov to the list. So, keeping that in mind, the Hockey Hall of Fame is open to more members. Because, like I've been saying, it's open (in theory) to NHL & international players whereas the IIHFHoF pretty much ignores NHL careers. -- Scorpion0422 01:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Hall of Fame RFC
[edit]Should membership of Hockey Hall of Fame and/or of IIHF Hall of Fame be presented on the Triple Gold Club page? -- Lejman (talk) 17:38, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- I won't advocate removal, but for the most part I think such highlighting is often done for decorative purposes rather than informative. There isn't really a close tie between this topic and either hall of fame. But there's no harm in leaving it as is. Resolute 23:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'd remove the Hockey Hall of Fame before I would add the IIHF. But I agree with what Resolute also says. -DJSasso (talk) 14:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm happy with the status quo. Hall of fame membership is nice to know about, and the current format leaves no doubt that everyone on the list is in the Triple Gold Cup. Hall of fame membership is just icing on the cake. --BDD (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
References
"Forgotten Firsts"
[edit]There seems to be a fair bit of edit-warring about whether Frank Fredrickson, Haldor Halderson, Dunc Munro, Hooley Smith and Dave Trottier should be included in the Triple Gold Club and therefore in this article. The debate could use a resolution, but I'm not entirely sure how to stop it, aside from asking the IIHF about it straight up. Is that too far to go? Is there someting I'm missing here? I feel a discussion is in order. 24.87.39.23 (talk) 21:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- There's been a long and tedious discussion on the IPs user page. Nobody is saying those five shouldn't be mentioned. In fact, the version we keep reverting to includes them. He insists on speaking in absolutes, so full-out calling them Triple Gold Club members despite a lack of sources. He's also been making a few POVish edits here and there (ie. Saying "three decades" which sounds more impressive than 6 of 7 tournaments or saying that all of Canada's top players during the 70s were in the NHL). -- Scorpion0422 23:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I think, that those five could be introduced in similar table as the regular TGC members, but, with all respect, their membership isn´t the same as the contemporary TGC´s. NHL in their times = just six teams and only two series to win SC, Olympic games announced as World Championship (no need to win two different tournaments)... I think this is not the same TGC. Let´s keep it separated, like Ottawa Senators then and now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.177.130.40 (talk) 16:58, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I've been discussing it with others and we'd prefer to keep them as text. Putting them in a table calls more attention to it and gives it undue weight. It's the same reason why the list of potential members is here on the talk page and not in the article. It's interesting, but in the end a very minor part of the topic. -- Scorpion0422 00:04, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, the debate will inevitably end when the lone person advocating such undue coverage is inevitably blocked long term. Their attitude seems to be that they will war as long as it takes to get what they want, and that won't fly here. And I agree with scorpion0422. I say no to any sort of table, until and unless that person can show a reliable source that states these five are members of the club. Resolute 15:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph should make it clear that the IIHF doesn't recognise these five as members.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Steve Yzerman as general manager
[edit]Steve Yzerman was general manager for Canadian World Championship in 2007 (as well as two other years) when Canada won gold. He was also general manager of two Olympic Gold winning teams in 2010 and 2014. He also works as general manager of Tampa Bay Lightning, playing in conference finals just now. Pointed out by Finnish journalist based in Vancouver. [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by BleuDXXXIV (talk • contribs)
- Indeed. But also of relevance, the "Triple Gold club" is a device of the IIHF. Should Tampa Bay win the Cup, Yzerman should not be added to this article unless he is specifically noted as becoming part of said club. Resolute 13:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
The players who narrowly missed out on joining
[edit]I think this one is interesting to be mentioned. These players had advanced to the finals of the third title but lost after winning two of the needed titles.
Players
[edit]The titles won in blue links, the finals lost in red.
Of the players that ultimately managed to join the Triple Gold Club, two were previously in this category: Viacheslav Fetisov (lost in the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals with Detroit) and Chris Pronger (lost in the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals with Edmonton). August-54 (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
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