Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom

To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions and Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions redirect here.

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by when more than 3 sections are present.

Calendar: current deadline is highlighted, and current UTC date is 2024-10-23 18:43:50.

The Signpost currently has 5601 articles, 701 issues, and 13651 pages (4454 talk and 9197 non-talk).

Current issue: Volume 20, Issue 14 (2024-10-19) · Purge

issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk (create)

Articles and pageviews for 2024-10-19

Pageviews for 2024-10-19 (V)
Subpage	Title	7-day	15-day	30-day	60-day	90-day	120-day	180-day
Traffic report	A scream breaks the still of the night	356	356	356	356	356	356	356
Recent research	"As many as 5%" of new English Wikipedia articles "contain significant AI-generated content", says paper	2280	2280	2280	2280	2280	2280	2280
News and notes	One election's end, another election's beginning	1625	1625	1625	1625	1625	1625	1625
In the media	Off to the races! Wikipedia wins!	1628	1628	1628	1628	1628	1628	1628
Humour	The Newspaper Editors	2733	2733	2733	2733	2733	2733	2733
Crossword	Spilled Coffee Mug	337	337	337	337	337	337	337
Contest	A WikiCup for the underdeveloped world	1643	1643	1643	1643	1643	1643	1643
Book review	The Editors	1155	1155	1155	1155	1155	1155	1155

Previous issue: 2024-09-26 · issue page · archive page · single-page edition · single-page talk

Articles and pageviews for 2024-09-26

Pageviews for 2024-09-26 (V)
Subpage	Title	7-day	15-day	30-day	60-day	90-day	120-day	180-day
Community view	Indian courts order Wikipedia to take down name of crime victim, editors strive towards consensus	3693	4043	4328	4328	4328	4328	4328
Traffic report	Jump in the line, rock your body in time	619	803	976	976	976	976	976
Serendipity	A Wikipedian at the 2024 Paralympics	1946	2162	2429	2429	2429	2429	2429
Recent research	Article-writing AI is less "prone to reasoning errors (or hallucinations)" than human Wikipedia editors	1956	2274	2503	2503	2503	2503	2503
Opinion	asilvering's RfA debriefing	2129	2327	2473	2473	2473	2473	2473
News and notes	Are you ready for admin elections?	821	1001	1209	1209	1209	1209	1209
In the media	Courts order Wikipedia to give up names of editors, legal strain anticipated from "online safety laws"	2043	2790	3520	3520	3520	3520	3520
Gallery	Are Luddaites defending the English Wikipedia?	5287	5729	6126	6126	6126	6126	6126

Articles and pageviews for previous issues/years

20:14 News and notes

I just wanted to let you know that João Alexandre Peschanski, the executive director of the Wiki Movement Brazil User Group, has co-signed a collective op-ed involving more than 150 international researchers and calling for more support and protection to those who study disinformation and its perceived impact on public opinion.

Do you think this might be notable enough for N&N, or should we just mention it on the ITM column? Oltrepier (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems more fitting in News and notes than ITM to me, given that it isn't really originating from a news outlet. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator elections

Enforcing "no declarations of support or opposition"

Each candidate's page has this notice:

Please do not cast votes or issue any declarations of support/opposition here. This section is for neutral discussion. Voting will take place using SecurePoll from 25 October.

I'm wondering how this will be enforced, and if we should mention either the notice, or the intended enforcement, at this issue's News and notes? ☆ Bri (talk) 03:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Election guides

I suppose we aren't going to link to election guides prepared by members of the community, but thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar

Maybe worth a mention? Maybe afterwards? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri Yes, we could write about those afterwards! Oltrepier (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not worth a mention, but

I thought this video [1] was a little funny since he's showing how to avoid the sponsored links from his own newsorg. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Well, ITM is never too tight for this kind of news! : ) Oltrepier (talk) 20:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 looks kind of light

Only four columns have been started, and we are about 76 hours from our writing deadline. Just putting this out there in case more starts are on the way. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri: I didn't come across your own thread, so sorry for that... I've also noticed that the upcoming issue is currently a bit thin on contributions, and the main columns (especially N&N) still need a lot of work.

Maybe we could postpone the deadline to two-three days later, so we could solve these issues without having to rush it.

@JPxG: How do you feel about it? Oltrepier (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow we posted 1 minute apart! Was it an edit conflict? Great minds think alike. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri I don't really see myself as a "great mind", especially after my mistake, but this is definitely astounding! : D Oltrepier (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 In the media

Signatures at the In brief section

I noticed this month several bulleted items at In brief have writer's signatures. It doesn't particularly bother me, but to my recollection we don't think we usually do it that way. Should they be retained, and if so, should we add them to the remainder of the items? ☆ Bri (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added them, since it was the practice the last few times I was a co-writer (see User:Josve05a/The Signpost). Sorry if not the standard any more - feel free to remove if that would be better. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 05:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @Josve05a Sorry, I'm reading this just now, but I wanted to let you know that I've boldly removed any signature from the section. Oltrepier (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Under the radar"

I found this great illustration of literal "under the radar" flight, but decided not to use it becuase considering the background of world events, maybe we want to un-link this commentary from literal military activities. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plagiarism in 2009 book

I added some brief coverage of that new plagiarism case. This could still benefit from some more detail; perhaps we can add a bit of Wikipedia-specific perspective to the general news media reporting on the issue. Regards, HaeB (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very important item and I'm glad you included it. The Wikipedia plagiarism specifically is now mentioned at The Telegraph, The Times of India and other first-tier international newspapers, as well as US cable news media. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be worth including plagiarism today's fuller analysis, seeing as this was the dude quoted by NYT and he describes that the NYT had not given all the passages over. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 13:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Updated, thanks. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

gone for 1.5 days

I'll be out of touch for most of the next 2 days. @JPxG: don't forget the book reviews! 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the media warning (Google News glitch)

A couple of times now I've added items to In the media, that were not recent. They popped up in Google News tagged as recent: in the latest case, Google News said a nine year old item was from 2 days ago. Just a caution to others not to get caught by this like I was. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Google News has been completely cooked the last couple years or so. They have been messing with it for unclear reasons -- if you search for a string with quotation marks in it, it will now just start returning completely random dog shit: blogs, tiktoks, facebook posts, formatted like news sites. Their documentation gives no explanation for this other than the implied "get bent". I basically stopped writing articles about recent events because it's been made unusable, although it is not as bad now as it was a year or two ago (some genius decided that it should just return tiktoks for every search whatsoever). jp×g 🗯️ 20:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14

Setting this forward -- I have some stuff from WCNA and am contemplating an interview/letter. jp×g 🗯️ 14:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've been away from my computer with IRL stuff. Another book review has been submitted, so I think we should publish them in the in the 'Book review' column with the earliest on top. I can write a humor piece that pokes fun at how we've mentioned this book in every of the past few issues. To make it clear, I support the book reviews being published, so the humor column will be self-deprecating. Does anybody have objections? Svampesky (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Svampesky Sounds good!

By the way, sorry for my very limited contributions this time around... Oltrepier (talk) 09:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forward again to be on the safe side rather than over publication deadline. jp×g 🗯️ 23:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for keeping the deadline updated. We have been running a bit late with the preparations for RR, but I should have some time later today to get it in a publishable form before the deadline. I see there is also work still to do in N&N and ITM - I might be able to pitch in there too, but probably not before the deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 17:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who wrote the bit about the latest WikiConference North America over at ITM? Somebody forgot to add their signature, but I couldn't find any information from the talk page...

@Bri @HaeB @Josve05a @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Robertsky Oltrepier (talk) 16:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found it [2], added attribution to @Smallbones. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Help copyediting?

Spamming everyone listed as copyeditors on our staff page, @Gerald Waldo Luis, Headbomb, Isaacl, and Adam Cuerden: – both In the media and News and notes still need to be signed off, if you can help. Thanks! ☆ Bri (talk) 00:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a late submission, and a bunch of stuff still needing to get done; I have somewhere to be tonight, so I guess I will just put the damn thing forward another day. jp×g 🗯️ 01:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

😿 jp×g 🗯️ 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @JPxG Just so you know, I've managed to go through both ITM and N&N and do some more copy-editing myself: I hope this makes up for my deeply underwhelming contributions this time around...

On a side note, I must say I'm impressed with how the In the media column has turned out: it sounds like a very rich and interesting read! Oltrepier (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Oltrepier! Just to clarify for others reading along who might be inclined to help out too: Both ITM and N&N are still not yet marked as copyedited - see the Article status list - and (more importantly) still contain several open to-do items, look for the yellow markings. (I resolved one in N&N while also correcting a mistake, and may be able to help out with more, but will focus on getting RR publishable first.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the outstanding highligted to-dos in News and notes and it is ready for (another?) copyedit. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, things are shaping up a little better, I will have another go at it shortly. jp×g 🗯️ 19:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably idiotic disclosure

I started an article on The Editors, duly logged with my other September creations, and it got deleted. IMHO this has nothing to do with anything, but there it is on the record. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Recent research

As usual, we are preparing this regular survey on recent academic research about Wikipedia, doubling as the Wikimedia Research Newsletter (now in its fourteenth year). Help is welcome to review or summarize the many interesting items listed here, as are suggestions of other new research papers that haven't been covered yet. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this missed the writing deadline, in fact it is now 3 hours past the publishing deadline. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, the paper I was writing up during the time I had earlier today turned out to be a bit trickier to review than expected. I'm back at this now, but am also not offended if the issue goes out without it in the meantime. (That said, several other sections also still look unfinished at this point or are at least marked as needing copyedits.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there somewhere the intermediate versions of the column are kept? It may help things out for others to be able to contribute to it during the writing process. jp×g 🗯️ 01:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure this is what you mean, but the Etherpad has starting ideas and can be used for drafting. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I always post the Etherpad link here inviting people to contribute, which also helps to keep track of which papers are being worked on (and which are not). As for posting partial drafts and unfinished notes on-wiki, we don't do that for most other Signpost stories either, and I'm generally unconvinced that it would speed up the process (in fact it might well slow it down). That said, I did in fact post an intermediate version yesterday after seeing JPxG's question (and knowing that I would not be able to resume work on it for a bit), with remaining to-do items marked - but except for one typo fix (thanks Smallbones!) this doesn't seem to have had an effect. (Btw for context about this particular review and its timing: This is about a very recent paper which I had tweeted about on Monday based on a quick skim only - as we usually do on the WikiResearch feed -, and which has received quite a bit of attention since, e.g. [3]. After reading the paper more fully, I think it would be valuable for us to provide timely context in form of a full review; in the "Wikimedia AI" Telegram group, folks raised questions about the paper's results too.)

I'm back at this now and should have RR publishable within less than two hours from now.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A book that plagiarized Wikipedia

Hi fellows. I think that this book chapter deserves a mention in Signpost. Its available from WPLibrary. I tried to summarize the findings from chapter 4, that deals with our entries. Learn about it after this excerpt in Retraction Watch: "A look at plagiarism at the Pontifical Gregorian University".

A recent book by Brill Publishers on research integrity reports several plagiarism cases in publications by Pontifical Gregorian University.^[1] Entitled “Shake-and-Paste Plagiarism from Internet Sources”, Dougherty's chapter four analyzes a 2012 book about Zera Yacob^[2] that, without attribution, copied and mixed texts from our 2010 versions of Philosophical methodology, Dialectic, Nature and Nature (philosophy). (p.181)

References

^ Michael V. Dougherty (21 May 2024). New Techniques for Proving Plagiarism: Case Studies from the Sacred Disciplines at the Pontifical Gregorian University. Leiden, Boston: Brill Publishers. doi:10.1163/9789004699854. ISBN 978-90-04-69985-4. LCCN 2024015877. Wikidata Q126371346.
^ Kidane Dawit Worku (2012). The Ethics of Zär'a Ya'eqob: A reply to the historical and religious violence in the seventeenth century Ethiopia. Tesi Gregoriana, Serie Filosofia 30. Rome: Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana. ISBN 978-88-7839-222-9. OL 43974394M. Wikidata Q126414328.

Cheers! Ixocactus (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Contest

The article contains a big pile of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE violations. However a) I know that The Signpost doesn't necessarily follow formatting rules employed in the rest the encyclopedia article space and b) I might be going out on a limb already in aggressively addressing this in beauty pageant articles so I will stop with this comment. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thank you @Bri & @Smallbones for helping copyedit. that section of the article is a copy-paste of a talk page comment not written by me, and i have no opinion on whether the flagicons stay or go - it's not in mainspace, so i think it's up to our preference more than anything in the MOS. courtesy pinging @GreenLipstickLesbian in case she has any thoughts. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good title and image? I'll try but please replace as needed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ready when you are!

@HaeB, JPxG, and Bri: With a few exceptions, I think this issue is ready to go!

HaeB, I know you want to complete Recent research, but your review is pretty good already.
JxPG The tripartite book review needs to be copyedited (bottom 2 reviews only IMHO). Also we need to let the reader know that 3 reviews are coming about the same book. Otherwise they might be surprised. So a Simple 3 line editor's introduction up top would be enough, explaining why we have 3 reviews (without overwhelming the reader). Yeah, there might be a few things with pics, titles, etc.
Bri Just 'cause I always ping you when something needs to get done.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

taking a nap and waiting on a final submission and will then be ready jp×g 🗯️ 07:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think you need to hold up publication for a bit and reconsider. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oh? D: ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because of humour, or something else? I got part way through the book review copyedit but didn't finish. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've been drafting it off-wiki with JPxG's approval to make sure everything is appropriate and kept general. Svampesky (talk) 15:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri @JPxG @Smallbones I've managed to go through the Book review column, hopefully it helps! Oltrepier (talk) 20:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I misunderstood what this was in response to. I wasn't aware of any reasons to object to the humor column. My Yes was based on thinking that Because of humour, or something else? was a response to JPxG's waiting on a final submission. Per the request of JPxG, it was reviewed offline to determine if it was suitable for hosting on Wikipedia and publishing in The Signpost. I haven't been communicated any reasons to not run it.

The joke is that it's in the style of an opinion piece from the misinformed-view that The Signpost must adhere to mainspace article policy and guidelines; published in The Signpost, lambasting The Signpost. What's the issue with this? Svampesky (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's now over two days since that nap began, and over six days since the originally planned publication deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:14 Humour

@JPxG, Svampesky, Bri, HaeB, and Jayen466: Until the last edit at "Humour" the main issue was that it is not funny, there's no humour in it. Please see this essay that's linked to our Humour resources here. It's not humour mainly because it's just whingeing. There's no surprise or misdirection. Just constant complaint. Not funny! Other important issues with it are supposedly linking to research papers which are not there and impugning the honesty and credibility of The Signpost and all its staff. We have a reputation to protect and having a staff member write that The Signpost is total garbage is the exact opposite of what we want to do.

There's another issue that goes beyond that: you've continued to edit the "humour" after publication without checking with anybody here and just making things much worse. Before adding to an article - it's not just copy editing - at a minimum you need to get JPxG's approval. Everything that's published must be approved by the editor-in-chief. The additions just look like provocations. The worst by far is that last edit. It looks like you are accusing me and others of paid editing. Anybody who wants to accuse me of paid editing, can make that accusation where I can be expected to see it, say it to my face. And then I can give you a proper response.

I'll suggest that somebody should delete that last line until JPxG can decide what he wants to do, then we should not respond, either here or at the article talk but just leave that garbage alone, only reverting future edits to it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've speedily removed that line. The line was added by JPxG at Special:Diff/1252023940. The reason I changed the word 'docked' to 'deduced' at Special:Diff/1252273371 is because the word 'docked' is a close-homophone to 'doxxed'. Svampesky (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i think the word you were looking for is "reduced"; to deduce is "to arrive at (a fact or a conclusion) by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion." (Oxford) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word I meant to use was 'deducted'. So I apologize for any implications that my error caused. Svampesky (talk) 17:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other than my error (changing a word on a line that was added by JPxG), I don't see the any issue with the content. In fact, a commenter on the book review column (Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-10-19/Book review) actually agrees with sentiments of the humor column, that The Signpost has launched an "outrageous promotional campaign" for this book. Svampesky (talk) 17:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If so, then I don't think the Signpost humour column is the right place to critique that. Andreas JN 466 17:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"No ping" template

Some of us are using Template:No ping in articles whenever mentioning and linking a user's account, in order to prevent the user being pinged. Note that this is not necessary: the notification system is only triggered by signed posts (i.e., signed using the four tildes). See Template:No ping#Purpose and WP:Ping. Best, Andreas JN 466 11:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to be honest and say I don't actually know when or how it was decided that we should use the noping templates. It doesn't seem like a very good idea (indeed, I haven't used them in a very long time). If we're writing about someone, if anything, we ought to go out of our way to ping them so they can see it. If they have anything to say, at least in my experience, every time it is to make a correction and say "actually that was on the 12th not the 13th" or something of that nature. A couple months ago there was a brief discussion on this topic, I believe because Piotrus had been mentioned in some article and said he'd have preferred a ping when it was being drafted -- this was when I found out that just linking a username in an edit didn't ping, only if you signed it... jp×g 🗯️ 09:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About when "noping" began. I don't know, except that when I started as E-i-C it was one of the first strange things I noticed. Strange to me - that is. I starting out wondering what the verb nope-ing meant. It took me about 15 minutes to figure out what it is, and most of what it doesn't do. In any case it was here in spades, and I figured "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but be consistent about it.

Something else similar - I noticed then that some people used "The Signpost" and some used the "Signpost". I didn't have time to get into an argument about it, so I decided I'd use "The Signpost" for myself wherever it was comfortable to use until I could decide. It would be easier to switch to "Signpost" from "The Signpost" than vice versa. It became quite comfortable after 2 or 3 months. End of my knowledge of copy editing history.

I almost forgot JPxG, Jayen466, HaeB and Bri

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two issues a) I think it's good practice to use the full name of The Signpost at least on first mention b) I don't see why using {{noping}} is an issue. At worst it's unnecessary, but harmless. I use it myself while I'm typing so I can clear a mental flag "do I need to remember whether or not I'm signing what I'm writing right now", because I often don't want to ping editors in other contexts such as sockpuppet investigations. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF office action for Delhi Court

I started the article at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/News_and_notes.

I invited existing editors to contribute at Talk:Asian_News_International#Lawsuit_article_removed.

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an article from The Hindu. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that quote about OFFICE actions from The Hindu is clearly not factual for our history. Most such actions involve blanking the related article while the issue is resolved. I remember the same thing being done with Choose Your Own Adventure thirteen years ago (and many of us being really irate about it). Silver seren^C 17:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I'll admit I didn't follow this case as closely as I might have. I don't understand why the lawsuit article is blocked but the article about the corporation is not. Surely the allegedly defamatory information is in the alleged bad acts such as Asian News International#Propaganda and #Misinformation. No? ☆ Bri (talk) 15:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bri: I interact off-wiki with many professionals in online media, including university faculty, lawyers, and software developers. When I talk with Wikipedia editors, the editors are often surprised when I say that highly trained and experienced Internet professionals have difficulty understanding the difference between a platform (like YouTube, Instagram, or Wikipedia) and its user community (like YouTubers, Instagrammers, or Wikipedians). Based on what I have read in the media, the court's public statements express a lack of awareness between these two, which I feel is a totally normal misunderstanding, although the lack of distinction is strange to Wikipedians. I think the court presumes that the Wikimedia Foundation's staff journalists wrote this article, and again, I think that is a very typical perspective which would be common in the courts of any country. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just reading a bit about this in the press now. I think we should consider running a special issue just for this, as historic government control of enwp contents and our community process itself. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

a special issue seems like a good idea - people have been talking about this quite a lot and it stirs up a ton of opinions. it would also then get its own comments section, which i think would also be beneficial ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For speculative reasons, we should be prepared to do this one with JPxG's alternative publication methodology. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest publishing offwiki somehow, give the office action. I'd assume the office action will be applied broadly, and cover the Signpost as well - causing even the Signpost to be censored perhaps. Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have nothing which suggests that the office action will be applied broadly, note that it has not been applied to Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF) or any other page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The same logic applies, though, and as soon as the court notices the other conversations they could issue an identical demand, and the WMF would be likely to make the identical response. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, I think its very unlikelely that the WMF will nuke the (by my count) nearly 100 pages (and growing by the hour) with content related to the case... And we both know how wikipedia works, more and more coverage just means it gets included on more and more pages until Wikipedia and India themselves get nuked... You can't fight NPOV across the system, just look at all the coverage we already have from just the one page removal[4][5][6][7]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't apply precedent to a situation that is unprecedented. This is literally the first time that WMF has blanked a page at a government's demand. At this time IMO we're just assuming that the court remains technically inept at enforcing their own contempt orders (like this other editor said). ☆ Bri (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that it is, but the discussion in which people listed precedents (which I believe were all either pre-2020 or on other language wikis... There was a French pornography house) was I think on the now vanished talk page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pppery listed a list of office actions for en-wiki on their t/p; it might be useful. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fr.wiki OAs

In 2024, WMF also took two content-related OAs at fr.wiki. fr:Wikipédia:Legifer/juin 2024#Suite concernant les deux suppressions juridiques effectuées par la Fondation Wikimedia sur fr-WP is WMF's statement; I found it interesting because it seemed like an unprecedentedly detailed intervention (not attributing any negative motives, though; it's perhaps helpful) by WMF into content, going to the extent of suggesting how the community ought to write articles, deal with COI requests, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wish they had posted the original in English, which was machine translated to French and posted. Because now I'm reading a machine translation back to English, which ain't good. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did they actually remove the articles in those cases? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship / publishing restrictions on The Signpost

There are currently no publishing restrictions on The Signpost and I have no reason to believe that there will be. However, the Wikimedia community is discussing the possibility of such a thing happening.

The Wikimedia Foundation has restricted Wikipedia from publishing an article about the lawsuit. Questions:

To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict The Signpost from publishing journalism about the lawsuit?
To what extent does the Wikimedia Foundation restrict Wikimedia community discussion in the Wikimedia platform about the lawsuit?

I anticipate that the answer to both of those is "not all all, and the Wikimedia Foundation encourages the Wikimedia community to set its own ethical and social governance principles", but because the issue is being raised, I wrote to WMF legal yesterday asking for clarification. I woke up this morning thinking more that it would be better to share that I asked the question at all.

If need be, The Signpost team can migrate the publication off-wiki to an independent platform, and the Wikimedia community can practice independent journalism. Right now there is no reason to do this, as the Wikimedia Foundation has always protected and encouraged The Signpost's community journalism. If anyone ever feels a Wikimedia Foundation restriction on The Signpost, then please call it out and share it, but personally, I have never felt anything but support. (Aside, I always have wished for more WMF transparency and access to information as it is challenging for journalists to get access to information, but I do not see journalist restriction on journalist values.)

As stated above, JPxG has an alternative publication methodology planned for The Signpost. I hope that there is no need to migrate off-wiki. I really do not want to encounter any friction with WMF legal efforts in India, which I support. I believe that the WMF legal team completely supports The Signpost mission. I simply am unsure of what the lawsuit means for Signpost journalistic freedom.

Thanks @Elli, Bri, Josve05a, Sawyer777, TrangaBellam, Horse Eye's Back, and Silver seren: for commenting on this issue. Please remain present. Let's all support free journalism, the WMF legal team, and Wikimedia community ethics and values. I am sure that none of these are in conflict, but sometimes it happens that legal teams are under pressure to make odd requests. Bluerasberry (talk) 13:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proceed with routine journalism Right now this is my recommendation. JPxG as editor-in-chief may share their views. The Signpost organizes Wikipedia volunteer editors to produce and publish journalism. Right now, please help to recruit more contributors to produce journalism in any of the suggested format types listed at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom. If you need assistance, then please message here. It would be very helpful to have multiple diverse Wikimedia community perspectives, including journalism reporting facts, opinions and editorials, reviews of comparable situations, and statements of our values.

If anyone needs editorial support then you can message here, email me, or also connect with me to talk by voice or video to get you started. Thanks. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry: I saw your very rough draft at from the editor (next issue) and I disagree with some of it. First we should realize that we are NOT a newsletter! The connotation of a newsletter is something planned by some boss to get out the organization's semi-official news out, organized by the boss's secretary who farms out the writing assignments to the officially trusted folks who will give the official story in a down-home folksy manner. That's not us, we're newspaper. We've been a newspaper since the 2nd paragraph of the 1st issue (right after Welcome!) Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-01-10/From the editor

"The name, The Wikipedia Signpost, was chosen to be like the name of a newspaper, since a newspaper is what I would call this project. Though it will almost certainly never appear on newsprint paper, it will nevertheless take on this role for our community. It should have some resemblance to the other newspapers you may happen to read in the course of your life (which I venture to guess many of you read online anyway, rather than the paper copy)."

So let's call it what it is: a newspaper.

There's also the material about nobody ever trying to censor us. Unfortunately there used to be something of a minor tradition of admins or other bigwigs coming into the newsroom and telling us what we should or could or couldn't publish. I've even seen cases of pre-publication censorship (I won't be able to link to most of these but see Itm in late December 2020 for one). It's not the WMF who did this, though I've seen a mild suggestion or two and one expression telling me they thought I was flat out wrong (all fair enough). We're an independent newspaper so I think the E-i-C's job on this is to start out trying to smooth out ruffled feathers at first, while gently showing the intruders the door, but vigorously defending the journalists' right to publish what they and the E-i-C think is proper. It's not that we are above WP rules, just like any journalists we have to follow the law of the community we live in, but that we don't have to follow the whims of the bigwigs, nor meet special requirements made up just for us.

I think of The Signpost as being something like a small town newspaper, with say a target audience of about 3,000 people, all living near a major amusement park, where most of them work, located just off the exit of the main branch of the information superhighway. We may not know all the inhabitants, but we almost surely know somebody who knows somebody who knows anybody we can name. Our "police reporter" (if we had one) might have a brother or a couple of uncles on the force, so we can't be purely objective on every story, but bringing in outsiders who don't know the town wouldn't work too well either. We just do the best job we can, and call 'em as we see 'em..

What does this have to do with Indian courts? Well, sometimes strangers wander into town and don't know our small town customs, but we should make an effort to AGF. We don't have to follow what the state governor (initials W.M.F.) says we should do, but at least in the short term they may be in a better place to handle it. Moving our printing press out of town might not help much, and would probably just put us in the same position as those woeful people who tried that a decade ago. It's better IMHO that we stay in the community to try to serve it, rather than just hurl insults and try to tell the townfolks what to do. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of the stuff I said at the VPWMF thread, plus this, basically, jp×g 🗯️ 17:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is tough. On the one side I want to support independent discussion and the integrity of The Signpost. On the other hand, a lot of the discussion I see at VP could quickly become essentially bear-baiting. It feels like going around in the dark without knowing what the repercussions are of continuing to discuss the court when they have ordered us not to. And part of what's tough is I don't feel individually compelled to follow the Indian court, but there is potential blowback to the Wikimedia movement, which I am part of and care about. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallbones: Please edit. I was just drafting content, because we need a statement. I do not need that "from the editor" piece in my voice, but we do need such a piece. Now is the time to define this publication, so let's be a newspaper. Bluerasberry (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I don't think my thoughts just above @Bluerasberry:'s should replace his, but it was good getting a few things off my chest. But the tone of my comments would not be good for the "from the editor" article he started. The point is that we can and should maintain "The Signpost's" independence, but we can wait if we want before taking a step that might upset the whole apple cart. Ultimately that decision will be made by Signpost staff, with JPxG having the final decision. There's no point doing something that could cutoff Wikipedia's 3rd largest national group of readers (Indian) from Wikipedia access. It's no secret right now what's going on. Patience can be a good strategy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I say we publish as normal. If WMF Office blanks the page, we still have The Signpost mirror. This is very different from pages deleted/blanked by community consensus, or pieces formally retracted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from Primefac, probably relevant. SerialNumber54129 10:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the consideration, but the Signpost team and the functionaries are all grown adults, so if we all decide we feel like rolling around wrestling in the mud, I think we are capable of arranging the event on our own. jp×g 🗯️ 17:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quote from Jimbo. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, something reasonable that takes into account all perspectives -- I can see why people demand this guy be gone. jp×g 🗯️ 17:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested copy of article

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request_copy_of_WMF-office_protected_page

Bluerasberry (talk) 14:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is archived on e.g. archive.is Jonatan Svensson Glad (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, one might be tempted to say that makes this application of OS policy make less sense. jp×g 🗯️ 17:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Upcoming musical Humour page

I think including a satirical song about the ANI court case is a very bad idea. I understand the reasons for including it in News and Notes, but the Humour seems like it could easily be interpreted as mocking the court, which does not sound like a good idea. IANAL, but I don't think we should post that Humour page. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've already communicated similar concerns to JPxG for him to evaluate. It also might be a copyright violation [8]. Svampesky (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I highly doubt that this is a copyright issue, but at any rate it seems highly inadvisable. Firstly, as it includes stuff written in a language the author does not speak, aimed derisively towards people who do speak said language. Secondly, as it involves AI in some way, which means that it will cause people to mald -- nay, to norwood -- if it is published. Thirdly, because it seems to be a deliberate attempt at provocation that does not bring any useful benefit to us -- if this gets deleted, which it obviously will, and I am forced to come up with some convoluted way of hosting it offwiki (a thing which we have never actually done before), the person who gets nasty letters and an ANI thread over it is me, which I am willing to do for reporting that actually serves the public interest, and maybe even for a joke that is funny, but this is neither of those things. jp×g 🗯️ 17:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20:15

The solution to the various issues that've been raised is for someone to contact the WMF directly to clarify what The Signpost can and can't/shouldn't publish on WMF servers (either by email or on a public forum), and if publishing off-site is allowed, as it will still be under the Signpost/Wikipedia/Wikimedia branding. Svampesky (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, we should operate as normal. Until and unless WMF Office takes an official Office action, it's both the simplest and most straightforward thing to do. And if it does take action, WMF has absolutely zero say on what happens off site, and we can just keep the story on the Signpost mirror. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Michael V. Dougherty (21 May 2024). New Techniques for Proving Plagiarism: Case Studies from the Sacred Disciplines at the Pontifical Gregorian University. Leiden, Boston: Brill Publishers. doi:10.1163/9789004699854. ISBN 978-90-04-69985-4. LCCN 2024015877. Wikidata Q126371346.

[2] Kidane Dawit Worku (2012). The Ethics of Zär'a Ya'eqob: A reply to the historical and religious violence in the seventeenth century Ethiopia. Tesi Gregoriana, Serie Filosofia 30. Rome: Editrice Pontificia Università Gregoriana. ISBN 978-88-7839-222-9. OL 43974394M. Wikidata Q126414328.

[1]

[2]