Talk:Cochin Jews

Untitled

The photo "Cochin_Jews.jpg" looks as if it isn't real. The relationship of the faces to the bodies suggest that it is a composite image. Does anyone else agree? Arnell700 (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Research and expand

There seems to be a lot of information about the Cochin Jews on the Internet. It might be worth doing some research to expand this article, or at least to add some useful external links. -- Jmabel 18:46, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Angry women

Man, the women in the picture at the top of the page look VERY angry.

No wonder the men in the picture look scared out of their wits. 69.141.47.224 (talk) 04:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Caste

Did these Jews slowly develop a caste system similar to that of their Hindu neighbours? (anonymously asked Oct 27, 2004)

Edna Fernandes (the journalist whose 2008 book is the source of most of the article) attributes the downgrading of the Black Jews to the arrival from Europe in the 16th century of the White Jews. This would have been a consequence of the expulsion of Spanish Jews by Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand II of Aragon under the Alhambra Decree of 1492 and related actions in other countries. The details of the disabilities of the majority group resemble those imposed by higher on lower Hindu castes.

There is no suggestion of the development of caste distinctions within the Jewish community before the arrival of Europeans Jews. The Jews may not have been numerous enough to have to perform all social roles within their communities, so they may not in earlier times have felt the pressure to develop the unacknowledged caste structure that the Indian Christians, Muslims and Sikhs did.

The period after the 16th century may have seen the general exaggeration of caste distinctions in what later became Kerala to the extent that in the 19th century Swami Vivekananda called the area a "madhouse." NRPanikker (talk) 01:36, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

"St. Thomas"

From the article: "Another reason why there was a reduction in Jewish population in old times was conversion to Christianity. When St. Thomas came to Kerala to spread Christianity, many Jews also joined among Nasrani Christians." I presume this means to refer to Thomas (apostle), but even granting the somewhat questionable legend of his coming to India, this would probably be around the same time the Jews would have arrived there. The story of Thomas is so shrouded in legend that I cannot imagine how one could possibly confidently say that he converted Jews at that time. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:42, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Moors

I have removed the word 'Moors' and replaced it with Muslims, because 'Moors' in the context of 16th century India seems like a total Misnomer suggestive of Spain and North Africa. However im not very familiar with the particular history so if anyone has further information or some clarification to add please do so. Isthatyou 15:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You have? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:08, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so it took me a little while, Heh. Isthatyou 21:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

USA in Kerala?

"Significant populations in: Israel 8000 (est.) Kerala 52 (including Cochin, Ernakulam, Parur, Aluva and in USA)" - Kerala, including USA??? Shouldn't USA form a separate row? --Oop 22:56, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

• Clearly; I'll edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:07, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, what constitutes "significant population" (since it's been removed completely now)? I am Cochini Jewish and I grew up in the US and have family there, though I can't imagine the 8 or so of us alone count as a significant population!142.157.6.223 (talk) 07:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Please contact us for documentation of the Jewish community of Kutzin Asafalon (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

How many of them still speak Malayalam?

Are there any speakers???? Axxn 18:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes!In Israel Cochin jews still speak and learn Malayalam Skylark95choppen (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Problems in chronology

This article claims that the Jews settled in India as early as 700 BCE on the one hand, and in the times of the breakup of Judah/Israel and of Solomon on the other. As Solomon died around 931 BCE and the United Monarchy divided around 930 BCE, there is a gap of about 200 years. If there is contradictory evidence, these years should be presented as being contradictory. Otherwise, this is just a fascinating article. Wakablogger (talk) 09:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Another chronology problem: "In 1524, the Muslims ... attacked these wealthy Jews of Cranganore ... The Jews fled south to the Kingdom of Cochin, seeking the protection of the Cochin Royal Family (Perumpadapu Swaroopam). The Hindu Raja of Cochin, Bhaskara Ravi Varman II (979— 1021) gave them asylum" Brownturkey (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Cochini Jews are found as far as in Malaysia

The Joseph Rabban and Joseph Azar family connections could be traced up to Seremban Town in Malaysia. There were many marriages among the Jews in Seremban.The Meyuhasheem , Rabbans married to Eliyahu of Malaya and there were only 12 families of Jews. Name like Joseph Rabban, Joseph Azar, Benjamin Meyuhasheem,Mannaseh,Mannaseh Meyer,Ezra, Cohen ,these names forgotten by social engineering policies. The last post of jews happens to be the House of Eliyahu of Malaya, two other family of jews were of intermarrige beteween the Naboothri Brahmins of Kerala and Cochini Jews,the migratory birds of the House of Judah.Benjamin Meyuhasheem lives as the Malaysian indian ( Ramalingam / Benjamin Meyuhasheem ) currently believed to have moved to Singapore.He is of the ancestory and origins of the Anjuvarnam Jew of Kerala. (117.20.173.44 (talk) 08:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC))

The Jewish Semolina Cake of the Seremban Jews- often said to be of Eurasian Recipy

350 g butter 275 g caster suger 250 g semolina flour 55 g all purpose flour 50 g preserved or crystalized melon pices, chopped. 2 table spoon of diced orange peel or lemon peel 110 g almond chopped 15 egg yolks 1/2 teaspoon mixed spices (the magic jewish five spice powder) 1 teaspoon of vanilla extract. 1 cup of brandy ( 4 oz)

1. mix semolina, flour, melon preserve lemon or orange peel with the jewish 5 spices. 2. Whip egg yoke with half the caster sugar till light and fluffy. 3.Cream butter with the rest of teh sugar together with vanilla flavour 4.Fold in the creamed egg yoke mixture. 5. Add the mixed dry ingredients and brandy 6. Just stir lightly to well mix 7. Turn batter into lined and greased 9 inch cake tin. 8. Bake in apreheated oven at 175 C for 1 hour until golden brown 9. test with the skewer if the skewer comes out clean the cake is done. 10. Icing the cake with royal icing, or glace ( lemon or orange ) is jewish.

Note : make sure all the ingredients are proper and kosher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.10.109.139 (talk) 10:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

"The 12th century Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela visited the Malabari coast of Kerala..."

Benjamin of Tudela never visited India himself - see map of his travels. Text after that sentence is fine. - Agassi1 (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

So, I'm changing. - Agassi1 (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Black jew of cochin with peyots.jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Black jew of cochin with peyots.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 What should I do? What is the reson for deletion?Old Mallu (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
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Racial segregation an exaggeration

The article seems to make exaggerate the existence of 'racial segregation' or 'apartheid' between the handful of 'white' Jewish families- who owned one, albeit the oldest extant, synagogue- and the much larger Malabari (black) community, who had their own synagogues, some which were very old as well (as back to the 16th century). To call it apartheid is ridiculously excessive as neither community had fewer legal rights or even social or economic standing. As far as I can tell the 'racial segregation' extended only to the use of the one synagogue and the inbreeding among to white community, which given it's size during its peak was only around 100 or so members! That a five or so families had a feeling of superiority isn't worthy of attention. The — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.125 (talk) 23:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Meshuchrarim

Does anyone know of sources for more information about them? Numbers as part of White Jews when they came in the 16th century? Origins? Based on the history of slavery and slaves in Europe, I think it is likely that most were mixed-race African and European, as such slaves returned with slave ships to Spain and Portugal, often working as sailors and/or interpreters. I knew that in North American colonies, Sephardic Jews were slaveholders, but had not come across any commentary that said their slaves became Jewish.Parkwells (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Life in Israel

The article does not have anything on the life of Cochin Jews in Israel. Jonathansammy (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Delete Modern Day?

The Modern Day section has only a sentence fragment in it. Unless someone wants to add more info to it, it should probably be deleted. I don't know enough to add anything.

Copper Plates

There is a problem with the sentence "The plates are physically inscribed with the date 379 CE,[32]". In the first place, this is not possible, as the Common Era (CE) was a) not used in the 4th century at all b) not used in India until the 15th century and c) not used by Jews. So the sentence should probably read "...with a date equivalent to 379 CE". But even this is not obvious to be true, because the translation of the text doesn't give a date at all, except the one relative to the king's reign. Also the next source quoted [33] says "The plate's narrative declare that they were given to [...] Rabban [...] in 379 C.E." That is not the same as "physically inscribed with". I hesitate to do a change because the "physically inscribed" stuff is sourced with a book I can't access right now. Somebody who can should have a look, but as I said, it's completely impossible that really a CE date is given. Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

קנאים / Knayim

There were five groups (Dasim, Mincharim, Pardesim, Meshuchrarim and Knayim), the latter of which that was converted to Christianity as a result of missionaries. I found a few sources in Hebrew but they all say the same thing. Does anyone have any more information about this? YaLindaHadad (talk) 02:04, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Related Ethnic Groups

@LightHouse349: I am not sure why a Syriac Christian group is listed as a "related ethnic group" and while they may have some similarities it does not discuss their actual relations and I believe it should be revised or removed. YaLindaHadad (talk) 19:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi @YaLindaHadad:, I have presented three sources (two of them published by the Hebrew University) that attest at a cultural relationship between the Knanaya Christians and Cochin Jews. This relationship is not simply one based off of correlations between Abrahamic Faiths but between the indigenous culture of the Knanaya and Cochin Jews. Jewish scholars such as Dr. Ophira Gamliel and Dr. Shalva Weil have noted that both communities maintain folk songs that are strinkingly similar to each other, some songs even having the exact same lyrics. The songs are also of a similar composure, linguistics, and characteristic. Furthermore some Knanaya songs sing of the Cochin Jewish leader Joseph Rabban and some Cochin Jewish songs sing of the Knanaya leader Knay Thoma. Additionally the scholars note that both groups maintain similar folk traditions such as carrying ash in remembrance of when their city of Cranganore was destroyed in 1524. The Cochin Jews and Knanaya also lived in extreme close proximity to each other. From the works of the Jewish scholars it must be stated that the Knanaya and Cochin Jews are related ethnic groups. The scholars Dr. Shalva Weil and Dr. P.M. Jussay have already been quoted numerous times throughout this article in other sections, their work is without doubt credible. The Knanaya claim to be Jewish-Christians and are noted for having genetic ties to the Middle East, which may be why they have correlations with Cochin Jews. Besides the Paradesi Jews, the Cochin Jews share more culture with the Knanaya than any other ethnic groups in India. Thomast48 (talk)

@Thomast48: and @Theohms: First and foremost, "the infobox contents should reflect what is in the text of the article. If reliable published sources support the existence of a significant relationship with Group A, then that can be included in the article (with references) and Group A can be identified in the infobox. If no such sources are found then Group A doesn't belong there." There is no mention of the "Saint Thomas Christians" at all in the article. Why should they be placed as a related ethnic group? This should be an obvious removal. As for the "Knanaya", a few similarities to folk songs is not enough to consider them related ethnic group. What about religion, holidays, language, dressing style, surnames and naming conventions, food, and rituals? In fact within the sections "Relations between the Cochin Jews" there is nothing detailing about the actual interactions between the two communities. PM Jussay's work is unverifiable and unreliable. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:29, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: If you don’t find Jussay or Shalva Weil appropriate than remove them from the rest of the article as well. They have both been cited numerous times throughout this article without question in other sections but for some reason when it comes to the relationship between Knanaya and Cochin Jews the two sources become “unverifiable”, this was the same rhetoric used by user Lighthouse349 which I don’t seem to understand unless there is some apparent bias going on here. Also Jussay, Weil, and Ophira Gamlel all do state that it’s not simply a few folk songs but indeed rituals and traditions as well that are stikingly similar between both groups. Also the relationship in folk songs is not simply that a few songs are similar but the style and linguistics of all the songs are exactly identical to each other, the only two groups in India that share this commonality are the Knanaya and Cochin Jews. Both the Knanaya and Cochin Jewish songs maintain Hebrew/Aramaic terminology that are not found in any other communities songs in India. Jussay also mentions numerous times that there were interactions between the two groups historically, I did not know if that was appropriate to add but if need be I can do so. Also it should be noted that Dr. Ophira Gamliel and Dr. Shalva Weil are Orthodox Jewish scholars themselves who published their works through the Hebrew University, I’m not sure how much more reliable sourcework on Jewish studies you can find than that. Also the fact that the two groups maintain songs of each other’s leaders is a clear sign of interaction and a close relationship between the two communities historically. The Knanaya dances of Margam Kali and Old Joseph’s round dance have also been compared to the folk dances of the Cochin Jews. The Knanaya even celebrate Passover, tho the community is Syriac Christian today it must be said that they have ties to Jewish culture and are truly one of the last Jewish Christian groups in existence. Also I wanted to ask you a question about the sources that mention the Jewish subgroups, particularly the Knayim. If possible could you share with me the title of these works? I work in academics and I am particularly interested in ethnic communties of Malabar. It is speculation at the moment but because of these numerous correlations between the Knanaya and Cochin Jews, there are some scholars who believe these “Knayim” who converted to Christianity may be today’s “Knanaya”. I am not fluent in Hebrew but I’m going to assume “Knayim” means ”Those of Knay”? Knanaya also means “Those of Knay” but instead with a Malayalam suffix. The only figure related to Knay in all of Kerala history is Knay Thoma, the Syriac merchant who arrived in the 4 or 8th Century. If you could share with me this sourcework, I would be much obliged. What makes this matter even more interesting is the fact that some of the Knanaya songs seem to be corrupted/Christianized versions of the Cochin Jewish songs. The Knanaya female wedding crown is also identical to a Yemenite Tashbuk. On top of this the community even maintains a Yemenite Torah scroll relic in one of their families. Genetic works on both communties have also found the Cochin Jews and Knanaya to be identical and both communties to be each other’s first automsomal match (Though I must mention the work I saw this in was unpublished but still rather revolutionary) Thomast48 (talk)

@Thomast48: I have no issue with Dr. Weil's work. I was able to obtain it recently. However, her work does state that they are related ethnic groups, rather that they have some similarities. I contacted Dr. Weil to clarify and she would not want to go as far as to say that they are related either but was drawing comparison on the parallels. Can you clarify which rituals and traditions are similar? Do they follow Kashrut or Halakha? Do men wear Peyot and Kippot? Do they celebrate Shavuot, Rosh Hashana, or Yom Kippur? You state that the Knanaya celebrate Passover however, several other Christian groups such as Adventists "observe" Passover as well. Additionally, the way the Knanaya seem to "observe" Passover in a way much different than Cochin Jews. Do they rid the house from chametz? How does their seder look like? Cochin Jews also spoke a seperate dialect of Malayalam known as Judeo-Malayalam. Did the Knanaya speak this as well? What about naming conventions and surnames? There are many Christian groups that claim to be Jewish which you can see here, Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites. Yet, their lineage is unproven and not recognized as Jewish. Yes, Knayim means the Knay people. It is stated that these people were converted to Christianity as a result of missionaries. Knay is a negative meaning in Hebrew meaning a fanatic. The source citing the Knayim is: לא היה קשר בינם לבין הקהילה היהודית, שלמעשה עכ"פ במאות השנים האחרונות כלל לא ידעה על קיומם. על אודותם ראו L. Rabinovich/Far est mission. However, I cannot verify it and that is why I posted about it. This type of crown is common throughout the Middle East and can be found in Christian, Druze, and Muslim groups as well. Also we cannot use unpublished work as a reference. YaLindaHadad (talk) 23:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi @YaLindaHadad:, besides folk dances, folk songs, Passover, and the physical symmetry like the relics available I’m not sure what else the two communties share. I would really recommend reading Jussay, his work is taken without demur by all the Jewish scholars who have come across him so far. Why the Knanaya and Cochin Jews have this symmetry is really a head scratcher. Jussay notes that it may be because of proximity between the two groups and also because the Knanaya claim a Jewish Christian ancestry (Early Christians).Both groups lived in the Chera Capitol of Cranganore and this may be why they share these songs. However one thing I’m curious to is why the Syriac Christian migrant Knanaya would sing about a Cochin Jewish leader. I feel that because of this proximity and shared Abrahamic faith, maybe the two groups had marital relations in ancient times and perhaps this is why they have this similarity. Genetics also puts the Cochin Jews as the Knanayas first ethnic group match out of all other ethnic communities in Kerala, even before other St. Thomas Christians. This may also simply be because both groups are from the Middle East and share a parent genetic line. Whatever the case the similarities are rather interesting and deserve further cross-cultural research. Also thank you so much for the information about the Knayim, I’ve been searching for this content for a very long time now. The Knanaya have cultural wedding crowns known as “Venthamudi” (Royal Crowns), the Community seems to have been a form of nobility in the past. The male crown is without down Indian in nature but the female is without doubt West Asian, as you’ve stated also found in Christian and other Middle Eastern ethnic groups. The crown is actually observed by third party European authors such as father S.J. Hosten found in the text “The Indian Antiquary”. Hosten states the male crown is similar to the crowns worn by Hindu God’s in their depictions. He details the female crown on style but doesn’t make comparisons. However because it’s style it must be said the female crown is Middle Eastern perhaps from the region the Knanaya came from, which after genetic testing seems to be generally Asian Minor (which can be inferred as the Syriac Christian center of Edessa).

Hi @Thomast48: Parallels between some folk dances and folk songs are not enough to be considered related ethnic groups. Nearly everything else is different. As I stated earlier, Dr. Weil does not go as far to say that they are related ethnic groups. The Passover traditions of the Knanaya are nowhere near those of the Cochin Jews. I have not been able to obtain Jussay's work and thus wrote it is not verifiable. Please provide where you see these genetic studies. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: and @Thomast48: First and foremost, Saint Thomas Christians are mentioned in the main article and in the references: "The Knanaya sub-group of the St. Thomas Christians claim a Jewish heritage and are known for having similar customs and rituals as the Cochin Jews." Unfortunately there is no standard term for the Saint Thomas Christian community and I surmise that is the rub of the confusion. There are half a dozen appellations that are equally valid. The Indian government still uses the Dutch name "Syrian Christians." Theohms (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps more can be added to the effect that Saint Thomas Christians in general have a Jewish affinity that is in surplus of that observed in Orthodox Christian communities elsewhere especially when "Saint Thomas Christians" is understood to mean the largely unified community in the Pre-Portuguese Era. Theohms (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Highly relevant excerpts from provided source "Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala" by Israel Ross (University of Texas): Theohms (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"This study is concerned with the rituals and musical practices of the Syrian Christian communities of the south- western or Malabar coast of India. These communities have lived and flourished in South India for almost two thousand years and were almost completely isolated from cultural contacts with outside groups until the sixteenth century, when the Portuguese invaded the Malabar coast. Yet they have maintained an essentially Middle Eastern musical tradition, uninfluenced by Hindu classical music or Indian folk music. In addition, the congregational singing of the Syrian Christians of Kerala shows a marked preference for... organum...evidence of organum singing prior to the 9th century, as well as today among such widely dispersed singers as Yemenite Jews, Samaritans, Cochin Jews, Turkmenistan singers, and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Syrian Christians strenuously resisted the attempts of the Portuguese Christians to dominate and change their traditional rituals, and have remained independent of the various denominational traditions which remained in the wake of the Portuguese, Dutch, and British occupations of Kerala. In view of this isolation and resistance to change and influence, it is possible that the Syrian Christian liturgical and musical tradition has retained many of the characteristics of the earliest Christian musical rites of the Middle East. Since the influence of the Jewish synagogue on the early Christian church was strong, it may be illuminating to compare the rituals of the Syrian Christians with those of the Jews of Kerala, with similar roots and a parallel history. Kerala, a narrow but fertile strip of land on the Malabar or southwestern coast of India, has been the hub of the East-West trade route and the home of a number of communities with different cultural and religious backgrounds for thousands of years. Hindus, Christians, Jews, Arabs, Moslems, Parsees, and native tribes have lived side by side in an unusually peaceful co-existence under a system of laws and rules of behavior called keralamaryada.Rituals and Customs As mentioned above, the history of the Syrian Christian community in many respects parallels that of the Jews of Kerala. Like the Jews of Cochin (a coast city with one ofthe principal ports in South India), whose culture and social life has always revolved around the synagogue, the focus of Syrian Christian culture and social life is the church and its rituals and the rites of passage of the family. Consequently, the musical expression of the Syrian Christians is almost totally concerned with the rituals of church and home. Many of the customs and rituals of the Syrian Christians are similar to those of the Jews of Kerala. This is particularly true of the rites of members of the Malankara Knanaya sect."

I am interpreting significant relationship with Group A (Cochin Jews) to be in accordance with Herodotus' understanding of ethnography i.e. (1) common blood, (2) common tongues and (3) common customs and cults. (2) is Malayalam and (3) is sufficiently substantiated and can be clarified further including naming conventions and surnames. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christian_names (1) remains speculative but cannot be dismissed because of the parallel historical claims of antiquity from both groups. Theohms (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

@Theohms: Having some similar music is not enough to list it as related ethnic groups. YaLindaHadad (talk) 00:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: @Thomast48: The songs are just a highlighted case study that is chosen among several parallels between groups as admitted in the paper. You are pigeonholing your preferred group from the genealogical context of said group. This is entirely your editorial license and not a function of the apparent truth delineated in terms of common customs & cults, tongues, and blood. The three aforementioned criteria ARE enough to list it as a related ethnic group. Before establishment of Israel and India, the Saint Thomas Christians were more related to Cochin Jews than to other Jewish groups in India listed as related ethnic groups given Herodotian ethnographical criteria. And up until the turn of the 16th century they have nominally differing origin narratives such as traders from the time of Solomon, "flute-playing Jewish girl" in the apocryphal Acts of Thomas, Joseph the Indian describes Cranganore as being inhabited by Christians with some Jews and Non-Jewish Gentiles etc.

References

Similarities and connections between Cochin Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Photograph)

Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:

1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’. The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’

2) "Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )

3) "There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786) • The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

4) "Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)

5) In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

6) In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Inscriptions)

Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script (Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India.

“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.)

• The observations across several scholarly papers on Kerala Jewish history, support an ancient Jewish heritage for both Knanaya and the other Syrian Christians of Kerala. Scholars of Jewish history have acknowledged cultural similarities and strong links between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. This needs to be mentioned in the articles of these communities. Gafeg (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Remove Christian speculation

@Jossyys: The section "Saint Thomas, an Aramaic-speaking[26] Jew from the Galilee region of Israel and one of the disciples of Jesus, is believed to have come to Southern India[27] in the 1st century, in search of the Jewish community there.[28][29] It is possible that the Jews who became Christians at that time were absorbed by what became the Nasrani Community in Kerala.[28]" this just pure Christian speculation and should be removed. Furthermore Slapak does not state anything to support this. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: The content is supported by multiple reliable sources. So it should stay there. Jossyys (talk) 16:32, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: "multiple reliable sources" such as? At best it is one source and it is a Christian source. YaLindaHadad (talk) 18:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no historical evidence for the conversion of Cochin Jews. You can reference 'The Jews of India: A Story of Three Communities', does not say that any were converted. YaLindaHadad (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Christian source or Jewish source does not matter when that source is a reliable one. For your information, Christianity was originally a Jewish movement, and the early Christians were mostly Jews. Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews during that period. In fact, Aramaic had replaced Hebrew as the language of the Jews as early as the 6th century BCE. Saint Thomas and Cochin Jews spoke the same language Aramaic. Saint Thomas Christians still use a form of Aramaic called Syriac as one of the liturgical languages. Jossyys (talk) 00:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: @LightHouse349: @Davidbena: This has nothing to do with Cochin Jews. Cochin Jews never spoke Aramaic. The liturgical langauge was Hebrew as seen in the Kochangadi Synagogue and the spoken language was Judeo-Malayalam a dialect of Malayalam with Hebrew influence. There is absolutely no proof or records on the conversion of Cochin Jews to any other religion. The source you referenced does not prove this. Many groups speculate on their links to Jews due to known similarities in some the practices of the Abrahamic religions. However this does not a connection to Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad:, while I edited this article a few years back, I am by no means an expert on Cochin Jews, and would know absolutely nothing about their origins. What I added to this article at the time was, I believe, well-sourced, although it spoke nothing about so-called Christian influences with the community.Davidbena (talk) 21:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Your argument is wrong. Aramaic was the language of the Jews in Israel, the Middle East and in Europe from the 6th century BC and afterward until the Muslim conquests of the 7th century AD [1],[2]. The majority of the Cochin Jews had come to South India from the Middle East during that period. Jossyys (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Reference "The Jews of India: A story of three communities" page 29 and 30. Clearly states Cochin Jews where versed in Hebrew. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:02, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews for a certain period of time in history, as mentioned above. Cochin Jews spoke Aramaic in the 1st century because it was the spoken language of the Jews at that time. Jossyys (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Once again no sources. I clearly listed mine. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:36, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Please check the references added above, 1 and 2. Jossyys (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Does not reference Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:53, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Please understand the difference between spoken language and liturgy. Slapak talks about liturgy in the 17th-19th century period (page 29 and 30). I am talking about the spoken language in the 1st century period. Jossyys (talk) 16:16, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Slapak never states that the Cochin Jews converted to any religion. YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: The content is supported by four references, and Slapak's book is only one of them. Jossyys (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: No it is not. Slapak does not state that they converted. YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:56, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: My statement above means that the content does not entirely depend on Slapak's book; there are other references. Jossyys (talk) 02:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: What other references? YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Another reference: ... consolidating all the available records states that, after forming, on the west coast, several congregations out of Jews and Dravidi people, Apostle St. Thomas reached Meliapore (Mylapore-Madras).[3] Jossyys (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Another reference is here [4]. Jossyys (talk) 16:22, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: The first is not a credible source to begin with. Additionally it states Mylapore-Madras an area in Tamil Nadu and makes no reference to Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: You are wrong.

• First reference: Here "west coast" means Kerala. Cochin is situated on the west coast in southern India.
• Second reference: "...came to Musiris (Cranganore in Kerala) in 52 AD. There he made his first conversions - of Hindus as well as long-settled Jews - at Palayoor. Thereafter he travelled down the Malabar Coast, making conversions in several areas and establishing at least seven churches, before crossing to the Coromandel Coast. He eventually reached Mylapore."

If you have not read it, please click the Search button there. Jossyys (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Arabs not zamorin (king of Calicut) attacked jews

It was Arabs and not zamorin of Calicut attacked Jews in Kodungallore. ref : mathrubhumi weekly Feb 13 2017. 50.186.129.253 (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)