Talk:Breakdance

NPOV

The article section on Dance Techniques begins with a systematic explanation of a b-boy set. There is no rule that you go from toprock to footwork to power to a freeze. The dance, if it ever was this systematic, is definitely not like this anymore. For example, most power sets are thrown at the beginning of a set WITHOUT toprock. I think the article should discuss each separately (unless we have solid evidence to back up this systematic approach), and perhaps then an added discussion of transitions between moves, whether it be toprock dropping down into footwork, or going from different power moves to freezes, etc. I don't have any sources on this, but any b-boy should know that how you transition between different moves is key, and there is no order that b-boys follow. If the toprock to footwork to power to freeze approach was a philosophy behind the dance, then there needs to be a credible source to make such a statement. Otherwise this is spreading false information, and also misleading new students to the dance. 19:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC) Wikibasher

"Break-dancing, in its organized fashion seen today, may have begun as a method for rival gangs of the ghetto to mediate and settle territorial disputes." True? Mr. Wiggles himself: "HELL NAAAAA!!! SH#T WE GOT INTO MORE FIGHTS FROM BREAKING THAN ANYTHING. THAT WAS A MEDIA HYPE STORY THAT WE AS YOUNG BBOYS( WHO NEW THE TRUTH ) EVEN FELL FOR. DEFINITELY FAR FROM THE TRUTH." In other books I have looked at, such as "Foundation" by Joe Schloss, as he talks to OGs about their experiences and the relationship between b-boy crews and gangs. I didn't get to read the whole book but although there are topics of interest between the two, I don't specifically recall reading anything about using b-boying to mediate territorial disputes. As Wiggles himself stated, it caused more problems it seems. Wikibasher 19:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikibasher (talk • contribs)

Hi, the article says that b-boying is done to hip-hop and electro music. Why is funk music not listed alongside the two? If anything, most jams are playing funk tracks and mixes these days. Big classics like "It's Just Begun," "Apache" any James Brown track, are funk, too. Additionally, some sources such as Skeme Richards will tell you that funk music is what they played at the jams and parties. Wikibasher 18:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Dancing is a way of life, but try to find the origins of that life and you find that every page you look on there is always something diffrent with each page such as who started breakdancing, when it started, and the types of dances. From what I have been taught lock dancing came first, then the mock fighting, then to the first breaking. After that it evolved into complex moves that have been brought to the table by various dancers. My point is that we need to find solid history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.129.228.190 (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey, just reading and I noticed in the "dance techniques" section, it says that bboying borrows "many" moves from gymnastics. There's only like two moves, flares and planche. I just think it that should be corrected because it takes from the originality that bboying has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bboy1987 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

HOW DOES ONE SUBMIT ARTICLES to this subject?? I have archival history to put up one here: FLiers of Kool Hercs & Afrika Bombaataa's parties circa '1974. Is one person regulating this page or a group? drewlooner@gmail.com Bboy Looner Serpent (talk) 00:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just curious, the NPOV tag is on this page but I don't see any disputes discussed here. Can someone fill me in?

REEDIT: Looks like this refers to the changes by TheChameleon explained above. Please be patient as I'm still learning my way around Wikis and just surfed over here out of curiosity.  :-) Isn't there a way to request peer review without using the POV tag? I thought I saw that somewhere....

PhilipR 16:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, good idea... Guess I'm a bigger beginner than you PhilipR... Put it to peer review please, I can't right now. Thechamelon 20:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Guys, see Wikipedia:Peer_review. I'm removing the NPOV tag and following the guidelines for Peer review. I don't what you want to clean up though, so I'll let you submit the request (click the "a request has been made" link up top). --Covracer http://home.earthlink.net/~covracer 11:46, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

I'm dubious about the neutrality of the couple sentences regarding 'The Freshest Kids: A History of the B-Boy.' Is it objective to say that this film presents the true perspective and accurate history? --SoylentBlue 04:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

• The Freshest Kids is one of the best documentaries on the history of B-boying and simultaneously documents the origin of Hip Hop Culture itself. It interviews many originators who were there. Although it is a very important documentary and the first "in depth" look into the history of Breaking, it is, however, VERY Rocksteady-ish, meaning heavily influenced by Crazy Legs and other members. There is controversy over where the biases are, but the general truth is there. (it is on the individual to research further, so this is why research sites like wikipedia must be accurate and detailed, taking accounts from all perspectives.

There is a history before Rocksteady. check: http://www.bboyworld.com/forum/breaking-discussion/64274-new-screen-name-clearing-air-me-mzk.html Bboy Looner Serpent (talk) 10:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Bold text== History ==

There are so many histories on the "beginning" of breakdance. Instead of many people writing their own understanding, maybe we should list the facts (meaning evidence)? Some argue whether breakdance is based on other artforms or developed on its own. (I'm not sure of anything anymore....:) Instead of interpret quotes and info from 3rd parties, we should maybe quote directly from the famous b-boys and books? Then readers can interpret themselves. Just a thought... Thechamelon 09:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi! The story about the RockSteady Crew being formed by a brazilian capoeira mestre is false. I think its not respectful for them to give wrong information about their origins. Quote: "THE CREATION OF THE ROCK STEADY CREW Written by Joe-Joe, The Original B.Boy, Rock Steady Crew '77

Founded in 1977, the crew's original name was the "Untouchable Four B.Boys". It consisted of four members, Joe-Joe, Easy-Mike, Jimmy-Dee, and P.Body 170th. However, the demands of recruits enabled them to reconsider and look past the four-member title of restricted membership. As a result, a meeting was held in Echo Place, Bronx, NY, at the residence of Jamie White [AKA Jimmy-Dee]. It was there that the ROCK STEADY name was born despite the initial idea of creating an extra crew to extend the "Untouchable Four B.Boys". "

This is an excerpt from the history of the Rocksteady Crew. Clearly we see no Capoeira mestre there, just some NYC kids.

You can find the RSC history at Mr Wiggles (one of RSC members, he is also in the Electric Bogaloo and was in the Magnificent Force back in the days, he was there when breakin and popping were being born so I think his word has got credibility) homepage http://www.mrwiggles.biz/hip_hop_timeline.htm

Also I find incorrect the many references to Capoeira that are included in the history of B.boyin´. Quoting again Mr Wiggles from http://www.mrwiggles.biz/misconceptions_of_hip_hop.htm : "-BBOYING WAS TAUGHT TO A GROUP OF YOUNG LATINOS BY A CAPOERA MAESTRO IN THE 70'S (CAPOEIRA IS A FORM OF MARTIAL ARTS, CREATED BY AFRICAN SLAVES AND DISGUISED AS A DANCE IN BRAZIL)." WHILE I DO AGREE THAT BBOYIN WAS INDIRECTLY INSPIRED BY THIS AFRICAN ART FORM. AND BBOYING DEFINITELY HAS ITS ROOTS IN AFRICAN DANCE. BUT I HAVEN'T MET A LATIN BBOY FROM BACK IN THE DAYS THAT CAN EVEN PRONOUNCE THE WORD CAPOEIRA. (MAN I CAN'T EVEN SPELL IT) THE STORY THAT BEST SIZES THIS ARGUMENT UP WAS A QUESTION POSED TO TWO OF OUR FOUR FATHERS OF BBOYIN "THE NIGGA TWINS", WHEN ASKED WHY DON'T YOU GUYS ( THE NIGGA TWINS ) GIVE CREDIT TO CAPOEIRA??? AND THERE REPLY WAS. I NEVER MET THIS GUY CAPOEIRA THAT YOUR TALKIN ABOUT BUT IF YOU BRING HIM TO ME ILL SEE IF I RECOGNIZE HIM. "

Having learnt both Capoeira and Breakin (although I´m into Breakin´ now, only), I can tell you that the apparent similitudes between both aren´t that great. Sure, both are played or danced in a circle. That´s logical, since when you´re breakin´, people are watching you, and the logical shape the people will form is a circle, since it allows most people to watch who is dancing. Music from Capoeira and Breakin´ have nothing in common. Headspins, Peu di Mao/90´s and some other of the few analogous moves between both aren´t done in the same way. In breakin´ the emphasis is put on doing the move the longest time, most difficult and flashiest way possible. This is the basis for the continual developing of breakin´, since everyone is striving to find new ways to do moves or whole new moves (which is more difficult). Instead capoeira has its set of moves, and you can´t move further from there. Take for instance an invert. Some b.boys now are doing inverts with their legs on lotus position because its a lot more difficult and amazing than a regular invert. In Capoeira you can´t really make up your own Invert! You must stick with the regular invert because that´s what a capoeira invert should look like. I hope you find my point. In fact I find that breakin´ has more moves similar to those of Kung Fu than to Capoeira. Based on these reasons I´m deleting the references to Capoeira and Mestre Jelon Vieira, since Breakin´ developed on its own from a number of influences, of which capoeira wasn´t that important, and its association with it (capoeira) is damaging the reputation of B.boyin Old Schoolers, making them look like simple imitators, when they created the most important urban dance style of the XX century. If someone doesn´t agree with this, please tell me why. Also state if you´re a Capoeirista or B.boy please. Violenciafriki 2:26 21 July 2005

Breaking and Capoeira are not one and the same, breaking is simply based off Capoeira. Of course break moves are constantly changing and being improved upon, it's the nature of the medium. Just as keeping the original moves of Capoeira the same as they were years ago is the standard of Martial Arts. Compare the showings of each form: A breaker who only did the original Capoeira moves would be crushed in a battle, the same as a Capoeira artist would be given low marks if he did not adhere to his specific movement in a judged competition. Each art form has evolved and taken on it's own form, especially breaking since dance is encouraged to improve upon itself constantly, but it's in the basic that the comparisons can be made. The basic toprock and the basic stance of Capoeira are too similar to ignore. Certain moves like hollowbacks and L kicks (I'm not sure of the Capoeira names) show up in both art forms. It doesn't matter if how the move is performed is different, since the aim of the movement is completely different. HeavenlySteps 19:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice of you explaining it. I am not a master of b-boy history, just thaught it would be more wikipedic not to edit big sections without an explanation. I have heard and seen *many* explanations and histories on the subject, but you argue well.. :) From now on, I hope everyone editing will have references supporting their view... Thechamelon 10:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• B-BOYING WAS NOT BORN FROM CAPOERIA, NOR WAS IT BASED ON CAPOERIA. We just borrowed moves from it just like we borrowed moves from Kung Fu, Gymnastics, Soul Train, and James Brown. (personally I watched tha Legendary Beat Street's ROXY Battle a thousand times)!!! In the Second coming of its popularity, Breakers attempted to learn Capoeria in order to improve their breaking because they saw it was similar and thought it would make them better dancers. What Bboy from the 90's hasn't seen "Only The Strong?!?!" -And we would watch it to steal moves from NOT for the sake of learning Capoeria. LAter it was obvious to Bboys: who was breaking and who was doing capoeria. (We would klown you for doing capoeria in our cypher). Capoeria CAN be considered a definite influence to Breaking, however Breaking existed independently.

• Also early ROCKSTEADY 7 GEMS videos documented a tour they went on that included Brazil (circa 93-95???). WHile they were there they obviously clicked with the capoeristas. Getting paid to Bboy in a new land, with exotic people, DIving off cliffs into clear blue waters, Bboying (and possibly som herbals??)>> may have caused them to under go a deep spiritual connection with Brazil, and hence, Capoeria, and since Rocksteady was such a massive influence on the spread and popularization of this CUlture, It would be reasonable to say Capoeria had an influence on B-boying. (7 Gems video:http://www.cypherstyles.com/product_description.asp?prodId=581&Pn=7-Gems-Volume-
• Note: There IS a history before RSC, (Check Zulu Nation) but seriously: Crazy Legs is the one who landed the gig for FLASH DANCE>>>THE MOVIE THAT INTRODUCED BREAKDANCE TO THE WORLD!! :TO America oustside of NY :and TO Europe as well. 1983. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085549/)
• Here in America, breaking never really went away, per say >>> it went a different route >>> it turned into Hip Hop>>>dances like the Roger Rabbit, Running man, Kid n Play and Hip Hop here became Afro-Centric while in Europe They kept it Old School Flavor.http://www.battleoftheyear.de/.
• Common sense broke down the phases of hip hop in his early rhyme:"I USED TO LOVE H.E.R.," where he spoke of HipHop as if she was a girl growing up. (She was an American girl not a European girl, doe, ha,ha, that was a joke)

• No offense to capoeristas, I respect the art. Some very good friends, Circle of Fire: Free, Dufon (Orb), Seth, Bob (The Balance), Roberto members seriously studied Capoeria back in the days. Seth currently has a school there. Dufon and Orb currently do House/B-boying now.

Bboy Looner Serpent (talk) 10:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry for the first time when I deleted a section without explanation... i´m newbie at wikipedia so I didn´t know about the talk page... :) Violenciafriki 01:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The concept that breaking emanated from the suburbs isn't very accurate, right? Worn down urban areas like Bronx in the 70s weren't suburbs by any definition. What to write instead? Arru 19:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

• inner city kids

Hey all; I'm currently reading P.T. Barnum's autobiography Struggles and Triumphs (1872 edition) in which he refers to the dancing part of a negro song-and-dance routine as the "break down"--is there any linguistic or stylistic connection here? acdavis 18:50, 7 August 2006

B-Boy firstly started out in the early 1970's, it then became more popular ten years later, it first appeared on public on an advertisement, it then grew into a more popular form of dancing. It then grew into a semi sport dance because of the usage of many gymnastic moves which is usually known as Power Moves.

You can't tell me the opening statement "It is normally danced to funk or hip hop music, often remixed to prolong the breaks, and is arguably the best known of all hip hop dance styles." Is non point of view! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.65.51 (talk) 02:38, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Hello, first of all i'd like to state that Im a capoeirista and only follow the bboying culture of my city as a hobby. With that off the way I'd just like to share my opinion with you guys. I know that breaking didnt come from capoeira as it took form in the 70's. Capoeira was barely known nation-wide in brazil by then. What I do know is that some capoeiristas started migrating to USA in that same decade, and some of them being african-brazilian most surely bonded with the african-american communities. If you take this into account, then it wouldnt be so strange that a capoeirista or two had something to do with the inception of breaking as we can see some basic freezes and footwork are exactly the same as in capoeira, such as 3 step, zulu spin, helicopter, etc. Obviously you may think "they dont look the same" and that might be because in capoeira you have another guy infront of you trying to kick your teeth out. I watch and respect breakdancing art form as something completely different than capoeira, but I strongly believe that a couple of brazilians were hanging out with the original crews in NY back in the 70's.

By the way, someone mentioned that capoeira moves where strict and one could not improvise new moves. You couldnt be more wrong. That's the common conception people have from watching Contemporary Capoeira, which is different from capoeira angola and capoeira regional. I've been teaching capoeira for 3 years now and I always pass down the message my teacher told me...You have to learn the basic so you can develop your own capoeira. Back in time when Capoeira regional was created, that was the whole point. mestre Bimba was displeased because brazilians were practicing oriental martial arts, so he decided brazil should have it's own national martial art and formed capoeira regional. When the roots of capoeira is to be original, you can hardly say that a real capoeira is restrained by strict moves, we have to improvise, not even the basic move Ginga should look the same in 2 persons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.164.34.16 (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to edit the history section, and state that the dance started out within the African American community first, and then spread to other groups. This is even stated by "The Latin Kings" in the documentary "The Freshest Kids". There was no Arab, or outside influence to the style in New York. Adaptations from various people, and cultures came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 11:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Controversy

I think it would be worth adding a bit to the Controversy section about the definition of the dance. It states in the article that West Coast styles can be more abstract and housey (although this is a bit out of date as it's not just the West Coast of the US that does this these days) but there is no addition of the controversy that these styles create for more foundational bboys. Perhaps something along the lines of:

There is also controversy about the definition of the dance. Break dancers that use the more classical version of the dance occasionally state that more abstract styles are "not bboying" which leads to the great debate about what break dancing actually is. There are two sides to this argument. One that states that break dancing should only include variations and continuations of the dance steps that have previously been defined whereas others see the dance form as a "do what you like" dance, meaning that anything goes even blending break dancing with other dance forms such as contemporary. This issue is especially relevant when considered alongside judging at break dancing events. If the outcome of the battle is not immediately apparent by differences in skill and technique the result decided by the judges tends to almost always be contentious to the audience and participants.

Breakdancing or Breaking was originally termed as breaking away from the conventional norm - prior to this dance form - dancing was done in an upright standing position - The Twist, The Pony, The Mashed Potato - but when Ric Silver[[1]] decided to take the initive of his contemporary dance training onto the disco floor and broke away from the norm to take the dance TO the floor - a new art form was born. Known in Manhattan as "The Dancer" in clubs like Studio 54 and The Monster on Fire Island - Ric was given access to a large space of the floor and decided one night to utilize this space and got down on the floor and started "Breaking" - by Monday afternoon, kids in Mid-Manhattan were out on the street corners with pieces of cardboard copying what they had seen Ric doing at the club that weekend. It caught on and spread like a wildfire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYCsDancer (talk • contribs) 09:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

(btw: i've used the term break dancing to be consistent with the article, I'd usually state: bboying) Icky Media (talk) 20:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

During the 80's, the show Night Tracks used to air the video for "The Safety Dance", and I remember it being explained that Men Without Hats wrote the song because they were concerned about breakdancing at their performances, and that they crafted it's tempo to make it hard to breakdance to. I can't find any modern confirmation for this. Am I crazy, or did this happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.86.183.229 (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Breakdance teamy

• Boys-of-street (*http://boys-of-street.7x.cz) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Premysho (talk • contribs) 21:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The reference to Galvanize should be removed. The video does not have any breaking in it of any kind. This is a video about 3 boys sneaking off to a Krump battle which is a totally diffrent dance Supersaiyanpr24 (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC) supersaiyanpr24

Reference & External Links

I think it is a little problematic getting references becasue there are no books for BBoying, and Websites are mostly forums. Does anyone know any reliable sites for information on BBoying that are not forums? And for external links, does it break the rules if we put forums like bboy.org, www.bboyworld.com, www.bboyzone.com for External Links? Thank you all in advance. Pseudoserpent (talk) 22:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe a valuable and accurate reference would be the film "The Freshest Kids." It is a critically acclaimed documentary that properly portrays Hip Hop and the specific individual element of Bboying. There are many primary sources in the film itself, namely founders of the dance and the people in the community growing up with the dance as it was created.

Ehung14 (talk) 17:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Good Idea, Ehug14! I watched it before, and I am a BBoy myselve. Could you please add some references in the main section of the acrticle please? Thanks if you can do it, and if not, thanks for the idea! :] Pseudoserpent (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Totally unrelated or maybe partially related. I was wondering if it is allowed to have links to YouTube? I'm asking this because I noticed there are videos of the Drifterz Canon in D commercial on YouTube but instead there's a link to Pachelbel's Canon in D wiki page. If linking to youtube is allowed, here's the link http://youtube.com/watch?v=CvkyjR4yk60 if not, then i guess this is irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paro727 (talk • contribs) 09:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

Does anyone know any good pictures that are not freezes (and do not break any copyright laws by using it on WP)? In my opinion, there are too many pictures of freezes. And the 1 handed handstand is more related to circus...should we change it? BTW: Picture Ideas: Power moves (Mills, Flares, 2000's, etc), Footwork (6 step, Helicopters (Coffee Grinders, 1 Step)), or Toprocking? There is neraly no reaference to Toprocking, wich is one of the most important parts of a set, because it displays the BBoys (or BGirls) style. Thanks in advance. Pseudoserpent (talk) 08:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Merging with "Bboy"

I propose that we stop encouraging the use of the term "Breakdance" by merging the two articles (Breakdance and Bboy) together under the title "Bboy". Anybody well versed in Hip Hop culture can attest to the fact that "Breakdance" is a term grossly misused by the media when in fact, the dance is called Bboying or breaking. Since so many people nowadays utilize Wikipedia as an authoritative source of information, this change must be made so that the general populace does not continue to believe the facade of breakdancing. Replace Breakdance with Bboying and replace breakdancer with Bboy; merge the articles together. poorequest to the BBoying page. I saw this was done in other articles, and it would be really effective for this page. Sadly, I do not have that much experience with WP... I see if I can find out how to do that, and will if enough people agree with it. Thanks, Ehung14! I see what I can do! :] Pseudoserpent (talk) 04:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

If no one opposes in the next 5 days, I'll get started (and bear in mind if you oppose to explain why. Thank you! ) Pseudoserpent (talk) 06:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Done! :) Pseudoserpent (talk) 21:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hold on here. You didn't "merge" the articles - you replaced the original b-boy article with the material from the original breakdance article and redirected it. I oppose this because this is not a merge - it's not what you said you were doing. If you want to merge, then merge. If you want to change article names by redirecting, that's a different story. Based on your contribution history, you seem intent on replacing the term "breakdance" with "b-boy" across wikipedia. Respectfully, I request that you gain consensus before proceeding with such a widespread change. Remember that wikipedia is based on fact, not truth, and therefore what the media says is important (no matter how we all may feel about that). --Sesameball^Talk 19:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sesamball, as I have explained in the B-Boy article (the one it redirects too), I am Working on merging. The merge will take a while, but still (since the article is still the same, but under a diffrent name) why shouldn't we forward it. I'm back i around six hours. Got school. :/ Pseudoserpent (talk) 19:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia IS based on fact. The fact of the matter is that the dance is NOT called breakdancing but rather, bboying. The only reason we still know it as "breakdancing" is because that's what people have continually to falsely perpetuate. This is an opportunity to remedy that. Ehung14 (talk) 21:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great, I'm looking forward to it.

Ehung14 (talk) 03:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that it took so long. Will be done in the next 24 hours! ;) Pseudoserpent (talk) 10:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

ATTN: New Editors - The full merge discussion here (below) has been archived and is now closed. The result of the discussion was merge the articles b-boy and breakdance into a new article titled b-boying. Gbern3 (talk) 17:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

About the Video Game References subsection...

Shouldn't it be worth noting that One of Sonic the Hedgehog's Taunts in Super Smash Bros. Brawl has him Breakdancing and saying "Come On, Step it up!"? I mean, Since you guys mentioned that some of the characters smash moves resembles break dancing, I thought this was worth noting.

~~Weedle_McHairybug~~

Go ahead, make the change. And please sign your post with four ~ Pseudoserpent (talk) 00:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I'd like to edit it myself, but I can't since they disabled the edit page option on the Main article.

Also, about signing with four ~, I thought I did [putting my name between two sets of ~~ [e.g.: ~~(InsertNameHere)~~]]. I mean, isn't that what I'm supposed to do?

~~Weedle_McHairybug~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.185.55 (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No, don't write anything in beetween. Just post four ~ because it will do it automaticly... ;)

BTW, you should make an account (it will display the username account. If you don't have one, it uses the computers IP address, which can be used against you... ;/ Pseudoserpent (talk) 05:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into a new article titled B-boying. -- Gbern3 (talk) 17:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

---

I believe that this page should be merged with the B-boy page because they are closely related.The b-boy page also has valuable information, which would improve this article alot. Please help with the merge! :) BTW, after the merge is completed, I see if I can get consensus to move this article to the B-boying page. And if possible, please add reference to this article. Thank you! :) Pseudoserpent (talk) 04:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Somebody at Wikipedia thinks that "b-boy" should be merged into "breakdance". At least that's what the link alludes to in the "breakdance" topic page. This is false, "breakdance" should be merged into "b-boy". When somebody types "breakdance" into the search bar, they should be redirected to the "b-boy" page.Ehung14 (talk) 21:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I did the merge proposal, since the two articles are pretty much the same. See my talk page. Oh, and you are right with the articles (that it should be published under B-boy) but since this is a bigger article, it is easier to merge B-boy into this one. And once the merge is completed, I will do my best to get consensus (approval) to move this article to the B-boying page. Please help me, Ehung14! (Because I believe this is wrong too. But Sesamball is right with what he says, so let's do the merge first.) :-) Pseudoserpent (talk) 02:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Support because these pages describe much of the same thing. The battles section, for example, is exactly the same. In addition, the B-boy page contains few citations or sources. --DerRichter (talk) 08:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course I support a merge of the information in the body of the "b-boy" article into Breakdance. Having two articles about the same thing makes no sense. The article cannot then be renamed B-Boy, however. It would more correctly be called B-boying, but that is awkward. Another complication is that b-boy had for many years a wider application than just the dance element, as the lead of the b-boy article spells out.

So: convert the B-boy article to a stub, leaving just the lead at that page. Merge the body, all the info regarding dance, to this page. Write in the first sentence of the lead, "Breakdance, or more correctly, breaking or b-boying,^[α] is ... ".

α. ^{^} [Whatever the sources say. Something about breakdance being an outdated media-created term, and breaking and b-boying being the both original terms and the terms preferred by practitioners today, I gather.] (B'Boy, I.R. Achey Breaky Heart, New York: Toprock Inc., 2004. (p. 3292))

86.44.30.169 (talk) 03:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Breakdance is an incorrect term and mainstream media proposes the words breakdance into b-boying. The term b-boying or breaking should be the correct "definition" wiki should use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.110.88.214 (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support the merge. I'd do it myself, but I'm not an expert on breakdancing, so I'd rather have someone knowledgeable do it; I might screw it up. :)
• However: the merged article should remain here at "Breakdance"", NOT "B-boy". There has been a clear consensus in Wikipedia for some time that the name of the article should be the same as the most widely used term. While "b-boy" may be more commonly used inside the hip-hop community, those outside the community (which is the majority or people) are more familiar with "breakdance".--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 23:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

what term people are familiar with is irrelevant. the correct term should be used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.75.166.229 (talk) 01:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• Agreed that it is irrelevant, Wikipedia is based on fact. The fact is, the dance is called b-boying. Ehung14 (talk) 16:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• I support the merge under the condition that the entire article is retitled as "B-Boying" with a redirect if anybody were to type "breakdance" in the search bar. With the prevalence of shows like America's Best Dance Crew and the usage of the term "B-Boy" in it (due to Super Cr3w). The proper terms are starting to see a bit of light in the mainstream community. However, there are definitely many people who have no idea what a b-boy is and this is an opportunity to amend that. Ehung14 (talk) 16:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

No. A merger between b-boying and breakdancing should not be done. If anyone really knows anything about bboying or breakdancing, then they can tell that they are completely different. If you do this, the wrong idea will be put out and that would disrespect all bboys out there. Super Cr3w is a bboy group and they are not break dancers. Bboy Scorpio (talk) 00:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I completely understand your Point of view, BBoy Scorpio. Breakdancing is the wrong term, even if most people think it's the "right" term for the dance. Im going to state this clearly again: I support a merge of this article INTO the bboying article, but not the other way round. Wikipedia should be based on truth, and not just what people think is right. But no, bboying and breakdancing are not really different: Breakdancing is NOT the right term, although more widely known. It is most often used by posers (people who think they are cool by 'breakdancing') and those who just started out. BBoying is the correct term, given by DJ Kool Herc. Those who have become involved in the dance / hip-hop culture use only 'bboying' as the name for the dance form. Pseudoserpent (talk) 00:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

100% Agree! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dschafar (talk • contribs) 09:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The merge should occur, but titled B-Boying/ B-girling. Breakdance is not the correct term, and if wikipedia aims to share the entirety of human knowledge, the knowledge should be accurate. Despite what the mainstream call it, the correct term is B-boying and if the article and indeed wikipedia is to be considered reliable, the accurate term should be used. the term practitioners and experts in the field use, not the term which those who are most ignorant of the art call it. To credit this misnomer is insulting, and should most certainly not occur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.252.205 (talk) 20:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• Support the merge, under the title B-boying.

All the major sources on b-boying refer to it as b-boying.

"The Freshest Kids" documentary uses the terms b-boying, b-boy, breakers and breaking throughout, and explains that the media coined the term "breakdancing" as a name for the fad in the 80s (which is explained and quoted in the section "'B-boying' and 'breaking' vs. 'break-dancing'" of the article as it is now).

The book "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York" (Oxford University Press, 2009) by hip-hop schlolar Joseph Schloss (also quoted at the top of the article) says:

"One of the first things that beginning b-boys or b-girls learn from their peers is not to refer to the practice as "breakdancing"... most feel that the term was part of a larger attempt by the mass media to recast their raw street dance as a nonthreatening form of musical acrobatics.... Those who are unfamiliar with the culture may be surprised at the vehemence of b-boys' feelings about the term: "I don't use the term 'breakdance'. It's an ignorant word".... The term breakdancing connotes exploitation and disregard for the dance's roots in hip-hop culture.... the term is also problematic on a practical level... breakdancing is often used as an unbrella term that includes not only b-boying, but popping, locking, boogalooing, and other so-called funk-style dances that originated in California"

Those sources clearly state that "breakdancing" is an incorrect term.

If no one can come up with any reliable sources that contradict what is being said above (i.e. find a source that clearly and explicitly states that breakdancing is the correct term for the dance, and states that b-boying is an incorrect term), then the merge should go ahead as soon as possible, seeing as wikipedia is meant to be based on verifiable sources.

The terms "breakdancing" and "break-dancer(s)" should also be changed to the correct terms, because at the moment their usage is contradicting the verifiable sources - the practitioners of the dance do not refer to themselves or each other as "breakdancers" in the verifiable sources... and the term "breakdancer" is said to be used to describe someone who dances just for money rather than love of the culture (Schloss, 2009, Foundation, Oxford Uni Press), which would not accurately describe the dancers in the article. Crateescape101 (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support the merge. I think both articles should be merged and moved to new page called breaking. It's a correct term just like b-boying is and it's close enough to "breakdancing" to satisfy the ones who want the media term. Just like most people who've responded, I personally don't like "breakdancing". It's wrong, incorrect, misleading, etc. I think breaking is a better title to use to help those in the general public who aren't familiar with calling it b-boying. If they type "breakdancing" in the search box and arrive at page called b-boying there might be a moment of confusion or question as to whether the two terms refer to the same dance. However if they arrive at a page called breaking, it's more familiar sounding and they can learn about the correct/incorrect terms and usage when they read the article. Make sense? Gbern3 (talk) 17:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ric Silver

I am removing all mention of "New York City Dancer" Ric Silver, who was recently added to the article as if he were foundational to breakdance. He looks nothing like a b-boy on his website, I for one have never heard of him, and he was only recently added (with no edit summary) by a new user suspiciously called User:NYCsDancer. This acount has only been used to create the Ric Silver article and insert credit for himself into the breakdance and electric slide articles. - Draeco (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it has nothing to do with breakdance/bboying. Thank you for editing. :) Pseudoserpent (talk) 05:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding documentaries to the "Film and Television Shows" section

There is a mention of THE FRESHEST KIDS in an earlier section of the page, but there is no mention of two recent & excellent b-boy documentaries, PLANET B-BOY and INSIDE THE CIRCLE. PLANET B-BOY had a theatrical release earlier this year, and INSIDE THE CIRCLE had a successful world-wide festival tour; both films are being released on DVD. Would it be possible for an "established member" to post the following paragraph, or something similar?

• * *

The acclaimed documentary film "The Freshest Kids: A History of the B-Boy" (2002) provides a comprehensive history of b-boying, its evolution and its place within hip-hop culture and beyond. "Planet B-Boy" (2007) brings contemporary b-boying alive as it follows crews from around the world in their quest for a world championship at Battle of the Year 2005. The award-winning documentary "Inside the Circle" (2007) goes deep into the personal stories of three talented b-boys (Omar Davila, Josh "Milky" Ayers and Romeo Navarro) and their struggle to keep dance at the center of their lives.

Lwlolm (talk) 22:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've done that for you. :] Pseudoserpent (talk) 05:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Did Break Dance actually have origins in Capoeira?

I have read that the original Break Dance actually had origins when some NYC cats saw some Capoeistas playing Capoeira, circa 1975 in the Bronx. Does anyone have confirmation of this? If so, why is it not mentioned? It would mean that the roots of Break Dance actually go back as far as Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.162.17 (talk) 03:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not aware of this either. It is possible, that B-Boys have copied some of the moves, but that qould also mean, that Kung-Fu ist the origin of b-boying, which is plainly wrong. In the end, it is an Artform. Artist inspire each other, even beyond their own artform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.73.212.193 (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Breaking

Why is this page called breakdance? Traditionally it's breaking, and the wrong use in the media and among people who know little about the culture shouldn't affect the article being named correctly. Can anyone explain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Headbeater (talk • contribs) 03:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this is something that has bugged me for over a year. The problem is, that too many people, who don't break themselves are in charge of the topic. I don't get it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.73.212.193 (talk) 19:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

See above in the "Merger proposal" section - if you want it to be merged with b-boy, under the title "b-boying", then support the mergeCrateescape101 (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

ATTN: New Editors - The full merge discussion here (above) has been archived and is now closed. The result of the discussion was merge the articles b-boy and breakdance into a new article titled b-boying. Gbern3 (talk) 17:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Latino Americans

The involvement of Latino Americans in creating breaking is stated very clearly in the 2009 book "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York" by Schloss, Joseph on Oxford University Press -

"the early development of the dance took place among small groups of working class black and Latino teenagers... the dance developed in the context of an urban Latino environment... there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking, which was Latino and Brooklyn-based, and b-boying which is black and Latino and Bronx-based". Crateescape101 (talk) 23:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

---

In the documentary " The freshest Kids", The first latino b boy group called " The latin kings" state that hip hop, and breakdancing started out as an African American style then as it became less underground more people took to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAK0wbcwZc&feature=channel —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 03:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

An interview with "Crazy Legs" states himself how the latinos started breaking AFTER African Americans did. No one is denying their influence, but even one of the greatest bboys states this himself. "Davey D:I had a conversation with Kool Herc and he said there were some very distinct ways in which African Americans and Puerto Ricans approached b-boying. Could you shed some light on that?

Crazy Legs: I think the difference is when the brothas first started doing and it was at its infancy they weren't doing acrobatic moves. That didn't come into play until more Puerto Ricans got involved in the mid 70s. We then took the dance, evolved it and kept it alive. In '79 I was getting dissed. I would go into a dance and I would get dissed by a lot of brothas who would ask 'Why y'all still doing that dance? ThatÕs played out'. By 79, there were very few African American brothas that was doing thisÉ I one say one other thing. We always maintained the flava. It was like a changing of the guard and all we did was add more flava to something that already existed. We use to refer to it as Moreno style or Cocola style. That was just the slang back then. There were certain Top Rocks called Latin Rock"(http://www.daveyd.com/crazylegsinterview.html) Darkman1984 (talk) 04:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The book Foundation interviews many of the original b-boys, and it also includes quotes and info from "The Freshest Kids" documentary - using all the information, the author comes to the conclusion that Latinos were instrumental in creating breaking and hip-hop. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You cant use only one book as the main source or the bible of Hip Hop. The original first Latino break dancers say themselves that the music , and the art style was created by black people. If you want this article to be correct, you should acknowledge what they say in the documentary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

So this book overlooks the first black Djs who created the craft, and over looks the first b boys who created the craft first? Because of the first people who started , and created it were black, and its obvious the latinos joined after the culture wasn't underground anymore, why are they being put as creators of the culture? They participated, and evolved breakdancing YES, but started the culture? No. And if you watch that documentary, ALL of the original Latino crew state this.

Darkman1984 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC).

The first founding people of the Music, and the art of b boying were black people. Latino contribution came later, and no one is bilittling or denying it. But to say they are the creators of the music, b boying is an insult to myself, and black people. The first latino b boys called it " That moreno style" for a reason. If you look at all past documentaries, all of them clearly stated it was created, and started by black people. I'm not sure if this article needs to be reworded or have someone else organize, and write it, but the founding creators "black people" needs to be stated first.

Darkman1984 (talk) 17:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I've seen the documentaries, and so has the author of that book - as I previously mentioned it quotes from numerous sources, including the Freshest Kids documentary.

You have cherry picked a couple of quotes from a small number of b-boys, but the book takes into account all the interviews and all the information. The rest of your argument is in your own words - wikipedia goes off verifiable citations.

I have given the citation that I used, which clearly contradicts what you are saying, and it takes into account the things you are quoting. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What Latino Americans created hip hop? Where in this book does it state that Latino Americans created the music that is called hip hop? Where in the book does it state that b boying, and breaking was proven to be started by black and Latino kids? Post the page, and quotes. I do not own this book, but its pretty clear from the documentaries from the first innovative Djs, and Cool Herc, that the founders were black.

Darkman1984 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC).

I already posted the quotes, but here they are again -

"the early development of the dance took place among small groups of working class black and Latino teenagers" - pg. 125.

"the dance developed in the context of an urban Latino environment" - pg. 141.

"there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking, which was Latino and Brooklyn-based, and b-boying which is black and Latino and Bronx-based" - pg. 153.

All from Schloss, Joseph (2009). "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York". Oxford University Press.

The above is about breaking, and breaking is a key element of hip-hop, as already cited in the hip-hop article itself. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this book just on B boying? The founding people, and creators of Djing, the music, scratching. All of them were black, the first ones to ever do it was black. So hip hop music was created by black people.

Break dancing was started by black people, and then latinos picked up the dance and approached it differently. Its the same thing as rock music.

The music aspect AT LEAST should be credited to black americans FIRST. The breaking aspect clearly has latino contributions , but not as the founding creators of it.

Darkman1984 (talk) 19:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes off of verifiable sources.

None of the sources in there at the moment state what you're claiming.

The sources that are in there directly and explicitly contradict what you are stating.

The sources you have presented in this discussion (which aren't in the article) are covered in the source that is in there now (from Foundation), and it doesn't come to the same conclusion as you (as shown in the quotes above).

Seeing as we have to go off verifiable sources, and not just your own conclusions or original research, then we have to go what is in the sources, which clearly states that black AND Latino Americans were responsible for its creation.Crateescape101 (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)