Talk:Baltic Finnic paganism

Awfull spelling and grammar

I'm writing an essay about pre-christian and pre-swedish Finland. I was gonna chek out some facts here but I ended up correcting spelling errors and grammar. This article needs to be reworked and some stuff needs sources.--DerMeister 14:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting spelling and grammar! There are lots of sources but they are presented in Finnish version only because they are in Finnish. I can add them here if you accept Finnish sources. Tuohirulla puhu 17:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge

A lot of the information in Finnish mythology is the same as here. A good deal of it should be moved there (if it's not present already), but I think that certain parts of this article should remain (shamanism, modern revival). --Tydaj 18:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It would make sense to keep the modern revival here. --Johan Magnus 06:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[[%C1satr%FA]] and Norse mythology are good parallels --Tydaj 17:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mythology and paganism

Is it fair to say that Finnish mythology is a subset of Finnish paganism? —Ashley Y 02:23, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)

I don't know. I faced the same problem while writing the article on this subject at Finnish wikipedia. In ancient finnish religion (and many other paganist and animist religions) mythology is a part of religion, but then again, religion is a part of mythology. Pagans had similar relation with ancient heroes, ancestors, spirits of nature and other spiritual creatures, even stones and animals, than they had with gods. While talking to ancient hero they did not think "this is mythology" and while talking to a god they did not think "this is religious activity". Propably the question is wrong. Pagans did not have "religion" that is separate from mythology and other fields of mental life. Tuohirulla 15:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been mulling this over for the past few days while getting set to do some major work both here & on the Finnish mythology page (see the Talk page there for a rundown on my intentions), & basically have come down to a sort of division in my mind: "mythology" as being the cosmogony (origins), cosmology (structure of the cosmos), & mythic stories, etc., & putting into "paganism" more of the day-to-day practices that came out of the structure of belief. That's my working theory anyway. -- Yksin 21:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Capital letters?

Should there been used capital letters in words like "Pagan/pagan" and "Paganism/paganism"? I've understand that all religions have to been written in capitals, like "Buddhism", "Christianity" or "Christian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.245.136.249 (talk) 10:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so. There is no one religion that has the recognized name of "paganism" -- rather, paganism covers a whole host of different religions that have some characteristics in common, but are by no means unified by common scriptures or sourcebooks or founders. -- Yksin 21:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Asatru

Over at Ásatrú the following section has been added. Could someone please source it or give a definitive answer on whether this belongs there?WeniWidiWiki 23:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Relationship to Finnish Paganism

Some Finnish neopagans consider Asatru a part of their faith, while others think it is foreign. Those who make a distinction between Asatru and Finnish neopaganism think Asatru is based too much on beliefs of neighbouring countries and not on their own local traditions. Some even see Asatru as a kind of cultural imperialism. Still the ancient faiths of Finland and its Scandinavian neighbours have many similarities, for example a thunder god who strikes lightning with his hammer, and rides in the clouds with his chariot making thunderstorms. (compare Thor and Ukko). Finnish folklore told about a great wizard Väinämöinen, the first and oldest human being, and maybe originally a god, who is - according to some - close to Odin.

"Also bears name was almost forbidden to say ..." - gramatically incorrect. Try "Also, it was almost forbidden to say the word 'bear', ..."

move

this should probably be at Finnic paganism. The Finnish people are the modern people, speakers of the modern Finnish language. I do not think that the prehistorical (pre-Christian, pre-15th century) populations should be called "Finns" but more generically "Finnic". --dab (𒁳) 07:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Deities as kings

In relation to this: "deities [...] have been referred to as "kings" [citation needed]." I believe the word that has been used is valtias (ruler/sovereign) and not kuningas (king). But I don't really have any real knowledge on the matter. --Enmoku (talk) 14:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

No Elk in Finland

This page repeatedly refers to 'elk' as a sacred animal. Elk are native to North America and eastern Asia, rather far from Finland. The correct animal would be the reindeer, an entirely different species. 142.113.127.45 (talk) 04:09, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope, it's the same moose, which, being from the Artic Circle, has crossed the Bering Strait. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:49, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Elk is the English name given in Europe to what Americans generally refer to as moose (Alces alces). As the Wikipedia article on elk states, "The word 'elk' originally referred to the European variety of the moose" — but was later applied to the species Cervus canadensis (also known by its Shawnee & Cree name wapiti) for historical reasons described in that article. In Finnish, the name for Alces elces (what North Americans call moose) is hirvi, whereas what North Americans call elk (Cervus canadensis) is called amerikanhirvi.

And yes, reindeer (Rangifer tarandus; in Finnish, poro) — an entirely different species from either elk or moose.

To avoid confusion for North Americans, perhaps best to add a note about the difference in usage between Europe & the North America. — Yksin (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I have now added the following footnote to the article:

The animal called "elk" here (in Finnish, hirvi) is what North Americans call "moose" (Alces alces). European settlers in North America later applied the word "elk" to the species Cervus canadensis (also known by its Shawnee & Cree name wapiti) — a separate species. — Yksin (talk) 20:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Moving the page to Finnic Paganism

Changing the name of the article to 'Finnic paganism' is a good idea, for these pagan ideas weren't limited to Finns, but also other Finnic peoples like Karelians, Livonians, Veps and others. IkuTurisas (talk) 20:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with renaming of this article from Finnish paganism to Finnic paganism.

In the request to redirect Finnish paganism to Finnic paganism IkuTurisas wrote, "Perform requested move, see talk page: due to multiple suggestions in the the talk page for this change, which is a logical and historically accurate change." But I find only one suggestion to that effect (from dab on 23 Aug 2010 — 14 years ago!) prior to the change being made; nor is there any reference to reliable sources to indicate just how "historically accurate" this change is.

IkuTurisas asserted in an edit that widely replaced the word "Finnish" with "Finnic" that "this faith was home to all Finnic people not just the finns" (emphasis added) — as if to assume pre-Christian beliefs of the various Finnic peoples was one unified "faith," shared more-or-less identically across languages & distances. This claim seems to be the underlying logic for why the article was requested to be renamed. But again, without any reliable sources referred to.

Meantime, even just a quick spot check on other Finnic peoples other than the Finns finds that there are disparities in beliefs. For example, the article on Sámi shamanism has as extensive List of deities — with citations to reliable sources — that differs considerably from the deities described in the present article as supposedly being "pan-Finnic deities" that are "venerated by all the Baltic-Finnic peoples and most other Finnic people." Even if some deities have similar features between different peoples, that doesn't equate to the belief systems being the same faith or religion.

That's only one issue with this article. Most of the sources cited are Finnish sources. There are few if any sources that specifically discuss the pre-Christian beliefs of Estonians, Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts, Komis, or Sámi, but simply seems to take the Finnish sources as authoritative depiction of religion for all those peoples. It's true that some of those sources discuss more than only Finnish beliefs, but at least of those with which I'm familiar, they don't claim that Finnish beliefs, deities, etc. were universal among the Finnic peoples. Juha Pentikäinen, for example, in Kalevalan mytologia (I have the English expanded edition of Kalevala Mythology translated by Ritva Poom published in 2009) discusses aspects of Sámi shamanism in understanding the Kalevala, but he's always clear that similarities been Sámi and Finnish or Karelian belief do not make them the "same."

I'm not actually arguing against having an article called "Finnic paganism" that can talk about similarities between the belief systems of Finnic peoples. But this is not that article. This is an imperfect, strongly needing improvement article on Finnish paganism, that erases the beliefs of the other peoples by claiming to stand for all of them. Any article on Finnic paganism needs not only to describe similarities, but also differentiate where there are differences. If the Sámi were not worshiping the Finnish god Ukko, we should not be saying so.

Discussion? — Yksin (talk) 22:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Another discrepancy between Finnish & another Finnic culture's beliefs — in the article on Komi peoples, under Folklore and religion, we find a brief discussion of the creator gods En (Komi: Ен) and Omöl' (Komi: Омöль) – not to be found in Finnish mythology. The article cites to an Encylopedia.com article Komi religion which spells out some of the differences between Finnish & Komi belief even further. Both are Finnic — but they are far from the "same faith." — Yksin (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

i agree with you that the religion is not extremely relevant to the Saami or the Volga-Finns, however i do not believe it should be renamed back to "Finnish paganism", the religion shared between the Estonians, Finns, Karelians, Ingrians, Veps and Bjarmians were practically all in the same. When i originally moved the article i was using the Common name for Baltic-Finns, aka just Finnic or Fennic, however i shouldve been more specfic. I suggest moving the article to "Baltic-Finnic paganism" as that is a more accurate name. The difference between Estonian and Finnish paganism is miniscule at best, only really being for example the minor spelling differences such as Ukko and Uku. IkuTurisas (talk) 23:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@Yksin IkuTurisas (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

simply moving this back to "Finnish paganism" is pointless, there is no point in creating extra need for articles on "different" "religions". This is why i still suggest moving it to Baltic-Finnic paganism, as that religion shared by the Baltic-Finns is the same religion. You can find no difference in practically all deities and gods shared by the Baltic-Finns, the shared gods between the Finns, Tavastians, Karelians, Estonians and other groups is enough of a reason to classify them as the same religion. As said before i originally named the article after the common name for the Baltic Finnic peoples, which is just Finnic peoples, therefore Finnic paganism. I see the moving to Finnish paganism as pointless, there is no logic behind that other than that i did a mistake with the naming, therefore it should not be done at all. IkuTurisas (talk) 13:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The current title is not a problem, only the introduction is problematic. If those other Finno-Ugric peoples are removed from the intro, and Finnic defined as Finns, Karelians, Estonians etc. then the article begins to have a coherent topic even without a move. Anna-Leena Siikala's book should offer discussion about the differences and similarities between the traditions of different peoples, and could be utilized more.

The current introduction would be more suited for an article with a title Finno-Ugric mythology. We should

I actualld have an article about it, even if the result is mostly negative: there not that many commonalities, except between peoples that live in each other's proximi "Proto-Uralic religion" doesn't quite catch all that.ty. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

i do think however the current title is a bit problematic as it is possibly misleading, it is more straight forward to rename it to Baltic-Finnic paganism and edit that one bit in the beginning. IkuTurisas (talk) 18:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Either title seems fine. Perhaps without hyphen, to be consistent with Baltic Finnic peoples. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

alright, i will perform the move IkuTurisas (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a good compromise that adequately addresses my problems. I'm in support. Thanks for your consideration. — Yksin (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)