Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion

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WP:MFD

Please do not nominate your user page (or subpages of it) for deletion here. Instead, add {{db-userreq}} at the top of any such page you no longer wish to keep; an administrator will then delete the page. See Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion for more information.

Miscellany for deletion (MfD) is a place where Wikipedians decide what should be done with problematic pages in the namespaces which aren't covered by other specialized deletion discussion areas. Items sent here are usually discussed for seven days; then they are either deleted by an administrator or kept, based on community consensus as evident from the discussion, consistent with policy, and with careful judgment of the rough consensus if required.

Filtered versions of the page are available at

Information on the process

What may be nominated for deletion here:

Pages not covered by other XFD venues, including pages in these namespaces: Draft:, Help:, Portal:, MediaWiki:, Wikipedia: (including WikiProjects), User:, TimedText:, MOS: (in the unlikely event it ever contains a page that is not a redirect or one of the 5 disambiguation pages) and the various Talk: namespaces
Userboxes, regardless of the namespace
Any other page, that is not in article space, where there is dispute as to the correct XfD venue.

Requests to undelete pages deleted after discussion here, and debate whether discussions here have been properly closed, both take place at Wikipedia:Deletion review, in accordance with Wikipedia's undeletion policy.

Before nominating a page for deletion

Before nominating a page for deletion, please consider these guidelines:

Deleting pages in your own userspace	If you want to have your own userpage or a draft you created deleted, there is no need to list it here; simply tag it with {{db-userreq}} or {{db-u1}}. If you wish to clear your user talk page or sandbox, just blank it.
Duplications in draftspace?	Duplications in draftspace are usually satisfactorily fixed by redirection. If the material is in mainspace, redirect the draft to the article, or a section of the article. If multiple draft pages on the same topic have been created, tag them for merging. See WP:SRE.
Deleting pages in other people's userspace	Consider explaining your concerns on the user's talk page with a personal note or by adding `{{subst:Uw-userpage}} ~~~~` to their talk page. This step assumes good faith and civility; often the user is simply unaware of the guidelines, and the page can either be fixed or speedily deleted using {{db-userreq}}. Take care not to bite newcomers – sometimes using the {{subst:welcome}} or {{subst:welcomeg}} template and a pointer to WP:UP would be best first. Problematic userspace material is often addressed by the User pages guidelines including in some cases removal by any user or tagging to clarify the content or to prevent external search engine indexing. (Examples include copies of old, deleted, or disputed material, problematic drafts, promotional material, offensive material, inappropriate links, 'spoofing' of the MediaWiki interface, disruptive HTML, invitations or advocacy of disruption, certain kinds of images and image galleries, etc) If your concern relates to these areas consider these approaches as well, or instead of, deletion. User pages about Wikipedia-related matters by established users usually do not qualify for deletion. Articles that were recently deleted at AfD and then moved to userspace are generally not deleted unless they have lingered in userspace for an extended period of time without improvement to address the concerns that resulted in their deletion at AfD, or their content otherwise violates a global content policy such as our policies on Biographies of living persons that applies to any namespace.
Policies, guidelines and process pages	Established pages and their sub-pages should not be nominated, as such nominations will probably be considered disruptive, and the ensuing discussions closed early. This is not a forum for modifying or revoking policy. Instead consider tagging the policy as {{historical}} or redirecting it somewhere. Proposals still under discussion generally should not be nominated. If you oppose a proposal, discuss it on the policy page's discussion page. Consider being bold and improving the proposal. Modify the proposal so that it gains consensus. Also note that even if a policy fails to gain consensus, it is often useful to retain it as a historical record, for the benefit of future editors.
WikiProjects and their subpages	It is generally preferable that inactive WikiProjects not be deleted, but instead be marked as {{WikiProject status\|inactive}}, redirected to a relevant WikiProject, or changed to a task force of a parent WikiProject, unless the WikiProject was incompletely created or is entirely undesirable. WikiProjects that were never very active and which do not have substantial historical discussions (meaning multiple discussions over an extended period of time) on the project talk page should not be tagged as {{historical}}; reserve this tag for historically active projects that have, over time, been replaced by other processes or that contain substantial discussion (as defined above) of the organization of a significant area of Wikipedia. Before deletion of an inactive project with a founder or other formerly active members who are active elsewhere on Wikipedia, consider userfication. Notify the main WikiProject talk page when nominating any WikiProject subpage, in addition to standard notification of the page creator.
Alternatives to deletion	Normal editing that doesn't require the use of any administrator tools, such as merging the page into another page or renaming it, can often resolve problems. Pages in the wrong namespace (e.g. an article in Wikipedia namespace), can simply be moved and then tag the redirect for speedy deletion using {{db-g6\|rationale= it's a redirect left after a cross-namespace move}}. Notify the author of the original article of the cross-namespace move.
Alternatives to MfD	Speedy deletion If the page clearly satisfies a "general" or "user" speedy deletion criterion, tag it with the appropriate template. Be sure to read the entire criterion, as some do not apply in the user space.

Please familiarize yourself with the following policies

Wikipedia:Deletion policy – our deletion policy that describes how we delete things by consensus
Wikipedia:Deletion process – our guidelines on how to list anything for deletion
Wikipedia:Guide to deletion – a how-to guide whose protocols on discussion format and shorthands also apply here
Wikipedia:Project namespace – our guidelines on "Wikipedia" namespace pages
Wikipedia:User page – our guidelines on user pages and user subpages
Wikipedia:Userboxes – our guideline on userboxes

How to list pages for deletion

Shortcut

WP:MFDHOWTO

Please check the aforementioned list of deletion discussion areas to check that you are in the right area. Then follow these instructions:

Instructions on listing pages for deletion:

To list a page for deletion, follow this three-step process: (replace PageName with the name of the page, including its namespace, to be deleted)

Note: Users must be logged in to complete step II. An unregistered user who wishes to nominate a page for deletion should complete step I and post their reasoning on Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion with a notification to a registered user to complete the process.

I.

Edit PageName:

Enter the following text at the top of the page you are listing for deletion:

{{mfd|1={{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}}}
for a second or subsequent nomination use {{mfdx|2nd}}

or

{{mfd|GroupName}}
if nominating several similar related pages in an umbrella nomination. Choose a suitable name as GroupName and use it on each page.

If the nomination is for a userbox or similarly transcluded page, use {{subst:mfd-inline}} so as to not mess up the formatting for the userbox.

Use {{subst:mfd-inline|GroupName}} for a group nomination of several related userboxes or similarly transcluded pages.

Please include in the edit summary the phrase
Added MfD nomination at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replace PageName with the name of the page that is up for deletion.
Please don't mark your edit summary as a minor edit.
Check the "Watch this page" box if you would like to follow the page in your watchlist. This may help you to notice if your MfD tag is removed by someone.
Save the page

II.

Create its MfD subpage.

The resulting MfD box at the top of the page should contain the link "this page's entry"

Click that link to open the page's deletion discussion page.
Insert this text:

{{subst:mfd2| pg={{subst:#titleparts:{{subst:PAGENAME}}||2}}| text=Reason why the page should be deleted}} ~~~~
replacing Reason... with your reasons why the page should be deleted and sign the page. Do not substitute the pagename, as this will occur automatically.

Consider checking "Watch this page" to follow the progress of the debate.
Please use an edit summary such as Creating deletion discussion page for [[PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the page you are proposing for deletion.
If appropriate, inform members of the most relevant WikiProjects through one or more "deletion sorting lists". Then add a {{subst:delsort|<topic>|<signature>}} template to the nomination, to insert a note that this has been done.
Save the page.

III.

Add a line to MfD.

Follow this edit link and at the top of the list add a line:

{{subst:mfd3| pg=PageName}}
Put the page's name in place of "PageName".

Include the discussion page's name in your edit summary like
Added [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the page you are proposing for deletion.
Save the page.
If nominating a page that has been nominated before, use the page's name in place of "PageName" and add

{{priorxfd|PageName}}
in the nominated page deletion discussion area to link to the previous discussions and then save the page using an edit summary such as
Added [[Template:priorxfd]] to link to prior discussions.

If nominating a page from someone else's userspace, notify them on their main talk page.
For other pages, while not required, it is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the miscellany that you are nominating. To find the main contributors, look in the page history or talk page of the page and/or use TDS' Article Contribution Counter or Wikipedia Page History Statistics. For your convenience, you may add
{{subst:mfd notice|PageName}} ~~~~
to their talk page in the "edit source" section, replacing PageName with the pagename. Please use an edit summary such as
Notice of deletion discussion at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the nomination page you are proposing for deletion.
If the user has not edited in a while, consider sending the user an email to notify them about the MfD if the MfD concerns their user pages.
If you are nominating a WikiProject, please post a notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council, in addition to the project's talk page and the talk pages of the founder and active members.

Administrator instructions

XFD backlog
V	Oct	Total
CfD	5	5
TfD	8	8
MfD	0	0
FfD	5	5
RfD	15	15
AfD	0	0

Administrator instructions for closing and relisting discussions can be found here.

Archived discussions

A list of archived discussions can be located at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Archived debates.

Current discussions

Pages currently being considered for deletion are indexed by the day on which they were first listed. Please place new listings at the top of the section for the current day. If no section for the current day is present, please start a new section.

October 31, 2024

Draft:Hurricane Leslie (2024)

Not needed, poorly written, and not even notable. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 20:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was a bit rude, but I guess it's for the best. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also didn't mean to submit it yet Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

but yeah Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like for you to follow other people’s advice, not ignore it. I am still a beginner, but you need more help than I do. Read the guidelines thoroughly, and talk to people about what is right or wrong. We’re not here to hurt you. We’re here to help you. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 20:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait how do I delete it Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no I want Leslie to be gone but literally don't know how Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:NDRAFT. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:98BB:D88E:3869:CB8B (talk) 20:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Percussion/Core

Unnecessary when Category:Top-importance Percussion articles exists. Has not been edited since the first day of its creation nearly twenty years ago. Why? I Ask (talk) 05:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Historical - No need to delete. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it even historical? It has been edited by only one editor on one day over a decade ago. It does not represent the larger WikiProject at all. Why? I Ask (talk) 17:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Percussion/Collaboration of the Month

Not been used since its creation in 2008. Wikipedia:WikiProject Percussion/In progress seems to be an attempt at re-creating it, thus this is unnecessary. Why? I Ask (talk) 04:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Historical - No need to delete. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has never been used. The only edits are its creation and tagging of inactive. It is not historical. Why? I Ask (talk) 18:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Percussion/WPPerc recruit

Unneeded and unused template. Why? I Ask (talk) 04:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Historical - No need to delete. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not historical at all. It has not gone out of date. But has not been used and probably won't be used in the future. Why? I Ask (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Hurricane Kristy(2024)

This was nominated by Insendieum (talk · contribs) at AfD, which does not handle deletion of drafts. Their rationale follows:

Wrongly formatted references + theres already been a discussion regarding this needing an article (which was a no.)
— User:Insendieum 23:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Procedurally, closing a misplaced AfD appears to require moving the nomination to the correct process; I'm not entirely sure the extent to which an MfD is warranted here. The draft itself does appear to be an ill-advised attempt to re-split out 2024 Pacific hurricane season#Hurricane Kristy. Beyond that, I have no opinion or comment. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 03:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - It isn't clear why this draft is being nominated for deletion, but there isn't a reason to delete it. It doesn't have Wrongly formatted references because it doesn't have references. That would be a reason to delete an article, and is a reason to decline a draft. We may have three errors here: original nomination for deletion in the wrong forum; an incorrect reason for that nomination; no reason to delete a draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is clearly just copy and pasted from its own section in 2024 Pacific hurricane season we have done a discussion on this storm needing an article, and the outcome was a big no. This also started a discussion whether or not every C5 Pacific hurricane needed its own article, and the storm itself hasn’t been notable in pretty much every way, there hasn’t been much coverage on the storm either, besides routine advisories. Insendieum ✉️ 20:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The draft is nominated here as required by WP:PROCEDURALCLOSE. -- Whpq (talk) 21:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:NDRAFT. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:98BB:D88E:3869:CB8B (talk) 20:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 28, 2024

Draft:Consciousness for Unifying Causation, Relativity and Quantum Mechanics

All but the last were rejected at least 1× for being OR, and all are related to each other in that they use a purported "quantum consciousness" to combine consciousness – a psychological and medical term – and quantum physics. Alfa-ketosav (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ignore, per WP:NDRAFT, and as busywork. The author is months inactive. User:Alfa-ketosav The nominator appears to be confusing the terms “rejected” and “declined”. These pages have been successfully handled by standard AfC processes, and mfd is misused by bringing the worst drafts to it. Leave these pages for WP:G13, unless there is an actual active problem. SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thanks. Alfa-ketosav (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One draft is rejected, with no further activity. Two are declined, which means the reviewer thinks there is possibility. One is not even submitted. AfC has the processes to deal with these, and they should not come to MfD. The drafts belong to the topic of Quantum quackery, so they are plausible drafts, maybe hopeless but plausible, and it is the purpose of draftspace to host them their and keep it out of mainspace. They belong in draftspace and should not be deleted from draftspace, except by WP:G13. - SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The third draft is not about quantum mysticism. It is about an educational technique, and was declined for reasons of point of view, not for content. The conclusion that they should not be deleted from draft space is correct. Maybe neither the nominator nor SmokeyJoe read the third draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I skimmed it. Ok, no quantum mechanics allusions. I note it is declined, and it has references, and I cannot see a reason to delete it from draftspace. Having skimmed it again, I do not feel the need to have read every word. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - This nomination is a train wreck, or would be a train wreck, except that Drafts are not reviewed for sanity. This nomination is of drafts by three authors, about two entirely different topics. The first two drafts, by one author, and the fourth draft, by another author, are about the fringe topic of quantum mysticism, the concept of an association between quantum physics and consciousness. The third draft is about an educational methodology, and was declined more for reasons of tone than topic matter. If we were considering these drafts for deletion for reasons of subject matter, it would be necessary to split this nomination, sending the trains onto two or three tracks. But drafts don't stop at this train station. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep All or Procedural Close - This is a bundle of drafts by three authors on two topics, but MFD is not AFC, and drafts are not deleted for sanity or quality. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I concur this nomination was ragpicking, but at the same time none of these drafts are going to become article so keeping them here is just a vector for false hope. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 27, 2024

Wikipedia:WikiProject Kilgore, Texas

Seems pretty niche for a WikiProject. Maybe a taskforce of WP:WikiProject Texas, but not an entire project. Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 15:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete per nom. Highly doubtful of lasting activity and extremely narrow scope. -1ctinus📝🗨 19:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: while the project has since been moved to WikiProject East Texas, it would be too redundant to WikiProject Texas, as well as it not being created using the proper proposal process. Xeroctic (talk) 09:09, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a WikiProject created by a user that has only created their account less than a week before creating this WikiProject. I don't see any reasonable future where this isn't DoA. Gonnym (talk) 11:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If deleted, please delete Template:WikiProject Kilgore, Texas with it. Gonnym (talk) 11:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have tagged that template at TfD due to the dependency on this MfD. Xeroctic (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. A small town of 13,000 people hardly needs its own dedicated WikiProject — and since the last thing Wikipedia would need is thousands of inactive or barely active one-person wikiprojects for overly narrow topics, wikiprojects are not free for just one user to create on a lark, and instead their creation needs to follow a process to determine that there's a market for them. But there's no evidence that the process was followed here. If WikiProject Texas wants to create a workgroup for East Texas topics, that's up to them, but it would need to be a workgroup within the auspices of the statewide wikiproject, not its own standalone wikiproject. Bearcat (talk) 14:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - There is a review process for the creation of WikiProjects that has not been followed, and this project would never pass review, and doesn't even have editors other than the author-creator. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The WikiProject has been moved/renamed to WP:WikiProject East Texas by the author-creator, in violation of the instructions of the {{MFD}} tag, which say not to blank, merge, or move it while the MFD is in progress. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 26, 2024

Draft:Nicolo Porcini

Draft about a minor that is unsourced and is unlikely to ever be sourced before the subject enters the age of majority. A Google search turns up absolutely nothing usable as a source, with only four hits (of which half are to Wikipedia pages and the other half to a list of prize recipients with no further details). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: As an unsourced BLP. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete (salt?) while usually i’m pretty indifferent towards draft deletions, an unsourced BLP seems to me to be a pretty strong common sense exception to WP:NDRAFT.

-1ctinus📝🗨 02:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An unsourced draft BLP wouldn't ordinarily prompt me to file an MfD. The subject of the draft, however, is 10 years old. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 07:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m on a years-long campaign to get WP:BLPPROD expanded to cover all namespaces. In the meantime, I encourage you to MfD unverifiable unsourced BLPs. The deletion rationale, “unsourced BLP” covers all sorts of bad things that aren’t quite WP:G10 worthy. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as an unreferenced autobiography of a living minor. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a reason you didn't post a notification about this on the draft creator's user talk page? That is typically done with all XFD discussions. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I spaced on it; I'll add the notification shortly. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 21:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:হাফেজ রবিন মারু

Copied and pasted the article from another Wikipedia bn:ইয়াসির আদ-দৌসারি and added fake image. and it a user page. C⚛smLearner ^💬🔬 14:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This is a case of Use Common Sense, because the rule against copies from mainspace is probably intended to refer to copies from English mainspace, and this is an unattributed copy from Bengali mainspace. It would be permitted with attribution of its purpose was translation, but that does not appear to be the case. The page has since been blanked, although the {{MFD}} template says not to blank the article or remove the template. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Quite inappropriate as a copy and as a fabrication and needs to be deleted (currently, the page is blanked).—Alalch E. 13:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete per U5. Machine translation from Bengali reveals that this is a profile page for the account's owner, and they have no edits anywhere else. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 03:50, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not U5 eligible, as it is a plausible draft. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The language seems promotional. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 15:48, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 23, 2024

User:Marine 69-71/Autographs

WP:NOTWEBHOST violation GrayStorm^{(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.)} 04:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. What, specifically, is the basis for the proposed deletion? In what way does it improve the project to delete this page? This user is an administrator with eighty thousand edits over the course of twenty years. If there's anything here that is actually disruptive to the functioning of the project, it is people who have a bizarre obsession with prowling other people's userspace to find "incorrect" things and delete them. Since this has literally zero bearing on the functioning of Wikipedia, my only possible conclusion is that there is some kind of jouissance derived from the act of destroying a thing that someone else cares about. Who gives a damn?

jp×g 🗯️ 06:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep also not sure how we benefit from deleting this. We aren't this strict about enforcing NOTWEBHOST against long-time editors and we have nothing to gain from becoming stricter. Elli (talk | contribs) 07:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete specifically a clear breach of policy: WP:NOTWEBHOST, to quote: "user pages do not serve as personal webpages, blogs, or repositories for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia" and "Please upload only files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else (e.g., personal photos) will be deleted." The content has no encyclopaedic value and there is no benefit in its retention. Mztourist (talk) 07:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am asking, again, a very simple direct question: in what way does it improve the project to delete this page? If you are unwilling to explain this, in clear simple language, your proposed action should not be done. jp×g 🗯️ 07:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It improves the project by making it entirely clear that those who enforce the rules are also subject to them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is disruptive and pointless to WP:RAGPICK people regardless of whether they are administrators. I would be saying the same thing here even if he were a disgraced former sysop. Is there an actual, concrete reason why this page endangers the project? It is not libelous, defamatory, or infringing of any law. jp×g 🗯️ 08:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ensuring that the same rules apply to everyone isn't 'disruptive'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with AndyTheGrump. User:JPxG I'm astounded that you are an admin if you don't believe that policies should be enforced. Mztourist (talk) 08:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm astounded if you have never read WP:5P. jp×g 🗯️ 09:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mztourist please add me to your list of admins who astound you. I'm here to help build an encyclopedia, and the only reason I'm an admin is so I can help other people do that too. Sometimes that means enforcing the rules. Sometimes it means looking the other way. RoySmith (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The same rules do apply to everyone. I am trying to apply the actual rules, not wikilawyer them to antagonize other editors.

I am aware that you believe the policy says the page should be deleted. I am asking if you have any actual reason why you think the policy says that, or why you think it should be interpreted this way. jp×g 🗯️ 09:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's deletion policy says: Reasons for deletion include, but are not limited to, the following ... Any other use of the ... user namespace that is contrary to the established separate policy for that namespace. The established separate PAG for that namespace is Wikipedia:User pages; it is however a guideline, not a policy. In that guideline, Wikipedia:User pages § Excessive unrelated content says: In general, if you have material that you do not wish others to edit, ... it should be placed on a personal web site, and has the following: WP:UP#GOALS (Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to: A weblog recording your non-Wikipedia activities. ...) and WP:USERBIO (Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to: ... excessive personal information unrelated to Wikipedia). WP:DELETEOTHER says Use of a user page as a personal web page unconnected with Wikipedia's mission may be a speedy deletion criterion and other pages [not requiring speedy deletion] likely to require deletion (or where remedial action is not taken) may be submitted to deletion discussion. The policy provision WP:NOTWEBHOST says Personal web pages are often speedily deleted under criterion U5. When the guideline on user pages speaks about deleting excessive unrelated content in the form of personal web pages, it elaborates on NOTWEBHOST, and is fully supported by the policy. The policy and the guideline are in union, and form a functional whole. This means that there exists a reason to delete this page as it is a use of user namespace contrary to the established policy and the established guideline for the user namespace.
This does not mean that we are obligated to delete the page. We can just say that we would like to tolerate this specific page.—Alalch E. 10:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is, more or less, what I mean to say. Neither the policy nor the guideline give an explicit requirement that any specific page be deleted: only pages that are deemed by consensus to be "excessive", "large", et cetera. It's obviously not forbidden to delete the page, but in order to do so, an argument has to be made for why. jp×g 🗯️ 18:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's more policy stuff, which I've quoted below, and I'll quote it again here for coherence, so forgive me: The content would have been related (getting to know something about a fellow editor is not unrelated) and not-excessive (to the extent that the content helps other editors understand who the person editing alongside them is, the content is not excessive) only if it had been: Limited autobiographical content (WP:UPYES) and a limited amount of personal information (perhaps a short biography) and a freely licensed tasteful personal photograph or two [which] are usually allowed if the page reasonably complies with other requirements. This is the same as notability. WP:N is a guideline. For a given non-notable article it can also be said that it is not forbidden to delete the page, it is not forbidden not to delete the page, and to delete the page, an argument has to be for why the topic is non-notable, and consensus has to form for the communal decision-making process to result in a deletion. This content is not limited autobiographical content, it is clearly expansive autobiographical content, and the amount of information is not limited, is not akin to a short biography, and many personal photographs have been added, in fact a rather expansive gallery. Clearly, there is strong policy-based grounds for deletion. Then again, I am not saying something will fall on our heads if we don't form a consensus to delete. But when you say if you have any actual reason why you think the policy says that, well, yes, there very clearly an actual reason to think the policy says that.—Alalch E. 23:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This sort of discussion is certainly in-bounds, IMHO. On the merits, this is none of our business. And you guys stop throwing spitballs at each other. This is a serious thing we're considering, policing userspace for things to delete. This sort of thing has been going on for a while and it's often a reprehensible failure of good faith. We normally let experienced editors decorate their userspace within reason. We most certainly let folks have their say in formal discussion without being astounded others have variances with others' rigid views on policy. BusterD (talk) 10:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"within reason". The user already has a lengthy userpage, together with his own page: Tony Santiago. This page is a repository for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia. Mztourist (talk) 10:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Testing those two words are exactly what we're discussing now. It may even turn out that consensus agrees wth your position. In the meantime, there's no reason to badger good faith contributors to the discussion. BusterD (talk) 18:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly feel free to add comments to good faith contributors to the discussion, so I don't see why I shouldn't also. Mztourist (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Supermario applies. Not just U5 but U5 rendered as wide as the canyon. SerialNumber54129 10:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
U5 doesn't apply in and of itself because it is reserved to non-contributors. But when the same pages are found among contributors' user pages, it does not mean that what is "unrelated" and "excessive" necessarily becomes "related" and "within reasonable bounds". The content would have been related and not-excessive only if it had been: Limited autobiographical content (WP:UPYES) and a limited amount of personal information (perhaps a short biography) and a freely licensed tasteful personal photograph or two [which] are usually allowed if the page reasonably complies with other requirements (WP:DELETEOTHER). —Alalch E. 10:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. In case you were not aware, "In and of itself" is synonymous with exclusivity in a discrete case, and I at no point indicated that was my thinking. Indeed, Supermario implies something beyond, or after, U5, as in meta-U5. I'm afraid you need a basic grasp of Latin in this game. And as for uncollapsing ~~JPxG's near personal attacks~~: BusterD's comment vis a vis spitballs is far more useful, even if he and I disagree over the merits of the specific case. SerialNumber54129 13:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~No offence, btw. SerialNumber54129 14:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)~~Struck in this edit SerialNumber54129 14:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

U5 is only for non-contributors. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOT. Other editors above state that this is none of anyone's business. That is a faulty argument which does not address policy. TarnishedPath^talk 15:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What WP:NOTWEBHOST actually says is this:
Wikipedians have individual user pages, but they should be used primarily to present information relevant to work on the encyclopedia. Limited autobiographical information is allowed, but user pages do not serve as personal webpages, blogs, or repositories for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia.

The subjectivity of the language is deliberate -- the intention is for editors to assess whether any given user page is "primarily" relevant to the project, whether any given information is "limited", whether there is a "large amount" or a "small amount".

The policy does not tell us a universal, black-and-white declaration that all pages above length N or about subjects XYZ are forbidden: it tells us to discuss it. Referencing the policy itself is begging the question: "does taking this action actually improve the project?" jp×g 🗯️ 18:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JPxG, I have no idea how you could imply that page is "[l]imited autobiographical information". TarnishedPath^talk 15:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Respectfully, a list of people that have given this user their autograph is as blatant as it gets. We typically give experienced editors some leniency, but this is well over the line. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - as using wikipedia for web hosting. -- Whpq (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - If this material was actually part of the user page, instead of a subpage of the user page, would we have a problem with it? Of course not. Not sure what this action accomplishes. Carrite (talk) 17:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - (edit conflict) We allow long-time users with a demonstrated commitment to being WP:HERE some space to talk about themselves in their own userspace (and to, e.g. gather lists of wikilinks about subjects with which one has a COI, or a list of articles you might like to work on, or a list of articles you enjoy, etc.). This is buried deep in userspace, on a subpage where nobody would even come across it unless they were digging around other people's userspaces looking for makework. Now, in addition to hosting this userspace page, we also host a meta discussion about this userspace page. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, the userpage itself is 34,452 bytes, this MfD is currently 14,164 bytes, and the AN/I thread is 30,984. jp×g 🗯️ 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's an ANI thread? Of course there is. I'll bet we're at bolded assertions by now. BusterD (talk) 18:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully we'll come to a keep outcome and this meta discussion will demonstrate to history we can reasonably disagree about keeping non-contentious, non-promotional autobiographical material about our contributors. I know there's a policy, folks. I have read it. Every single contributor to this discussion has a stake in the outcome, because all of us are going to cease our wikipedia-ing eventually. How will readers in the future know anything about the human beings involved? Because we left clues. All those who want humanity to suffer for the deletion of this page, do what you must. BusterD (talk) 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"non-promotional"? seriously? This page is an egocentric personal blog. The creator already has a lengthy Userpage and a WP page: Tony Santiago. How does this page advance the project? Mztourist (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep this page has been in a similar state since 2006. I thought it was plausible for keeping based on its age and high engagement of the creator before I saw that he has a Wikipedia article, but since he does that turns it into a solid keep. Some (not all but we don't require perfection) of this page is potentially relevant to a Wikipedia article. And we can decide to keep a page like this without setting too much precedent as there aren't many long time editors who created similar pages 18 years ago and have Wikipedia articles. Skynxnex (talk) 18:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is it relevant to a Wikipedia article? Mztourist (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's essential for a keep but, for example, Tony Santiago includes a photo, commons:File:Tony_with_Representatives2.jpg, from an event that is also on the Autographs page, which includes an alternative photo, commons:File:Tony_and_McClintock.jpg (arguably the one that is only on the autograph would be a better fit for the article). But this page does have a collecting photo and notes about the subject of an existing (or potential) Wikipedia article, some of which could serve as a basis for expansion. Skynxnex (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This is clearly a WP:NOT#WEBHOST case, as this material is purely of personal interest, and has no practical relation to working on the encyclopedia, either as a content per se or as inter-editor communication. No the first time this editor has been reminded to not use WP as a cloud drive for WP-unrelated material. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, basically per Rhododendrites. I'll add that this is someone with over 60% of their (many thousands of) edits to mainspace. They're not anywhere near misusing wikipedia as a web host. The photos, specifically, may well count, though. Please upload only files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else (e.g., personal photos) will be deleted. is much more explicit. -- asilvering (talk) 23:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a webhost violation. Also while the claims made about living persons are fairly innocuous, we really should be encouraging editors to make so many claims about living persons without a good reason to do so. Nil Einne (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd add that I don't know why editors keep bringing up disk space. Perhaps in 2022 or something editors thought we should avoid using Wikipedia as a webhost due to hosting costs. But frankly since I joined in 2005 or so it was a non issue at least when it came to text. I've never thought that NOTWEBHOST had anything to do with disk space and I haven't see anyone who supports deletion say disk space has anything to do with it. Frankly although I supported but didn't take part much in the campaign against editors using Commons (maybe Wikipedia slightly) to post self created nudes and other such adult content, even in that case where we were sometimes talking about videos, disk space seemed to be at best a very very minor concern. The problem with ensuring webhost violations comply with WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO etc is however a big factor; including editors unnecessarily needing to review such pages when they don't serve a good purpose. Nil Einne (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fostering an appearance that volunteer editors are in fact rewarded with a privilege of hosting voluminous personal pages on this extremely popular website, using the website's infrastructure and conveniences, makes the entire project look like its participants are not quite as serious about the project's values as they try to make it seem, seen from the outside. It's not the right look. While, within the community, most editors probably don't feel like any given colleague does not deserve this privilege in return for their time and energy spent on the project, this is not what Wikipedia communicates outward and is incompatible with the simple concept of a Wikipedia volunteer. There has to be a standard and the standard exists: WP:UPNOT. This page is too much.—Alalch E. 01:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good argument. As a long time contributor, I have a harder time seeing things this way. I appreciate your presenting this viewpoint. BusterD (talk) 01:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Within reasonable leeway for a long-standing contributor. Pageviews are near zero and contradict notions of WEBHOSTing. The attempted policing, aggressively, of things like this is far more damaging to the community than any good that can come of it. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep matters related to the user, explaining the user's interests, in user space - why not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Policy is pretty clear on it, WP:WEBHOST does not make an exception for tenure or status. Those arguments to keep are baseless WP:ILIKEIT. When one side is based on policy and one side feelings, the decision is clear. PackMecEng (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:WEBHOST does state Limited autobiographical information is allowed. The policy is, however, unclear on how this is defined; but the associated guideline WP:UPNOT clearly states The Wikipedia community is generally tolerant and offers fairly wide latitude in applying these guidelines to regular participants. With no clear definition in policy, and a statement of tolerance in the associated guideline for regular users, I agree with Rhododendrites. ResonantDis_tortion 13:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with that interpretation is no regular editor would fall under than then. Its also hard to say that such an extensive page falls under limited or non-promotional. PackMecEng (talk) 14:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those quoting WP:WEBHOST re. autobiographical information being permitted must, if they expect that argument to hold, also explain why the page is used primarily to present information relevant to work on the encyclopedia. As PME explains, otherwise they are non-policy based assertions. SerialNumber54129 15:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as has been pointed out like ten times, the policy is written explicitly to permit discretion, so it is entirely up to us to argue why one outcome is actually better the other. That is the policy-based argument.

The argument for keeping pages like this is that it's profoundly uncomfortable and alienating to be actively prevented from having my fellow editors communicate with me about what they consider important about themselves (and vice versa). It creates a hostile, unpleasant environment. This actively drives away volunteer editors. This destroys the encyclopedia.

The argument for deleting it is... what? Deliberately going out of our way to interpret policy in the most hostile way possible just seems like a deeply unserious approach to running a sustainable collaborative project. jp×g 🗯️ 02:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting perspective, personally all I need to know about another editor is do they edit fairly and competently? Their sex, age, ethnicity, likes and dislikes etc. are completely irrelevant. There's no support for your claims that deleting excessive and wholly irrelevant personal information "creates a hostile, unpleasant environment" that "actively drives away volunteer editors" and "destroys the encyclopedia." Mztourist (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! Those voting delete are actively destroying the encyclopedia. Wow that is quite the hyperbolic and needlessly inflammatory comment. Then ignoring all the explanations for why the policy applies and just going with the bad faith assumptions that everyone is deliberately going out of their way to interpret policy in the most hostile way. Lame. PackMecEng (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Perhaps the nominator can explain why they are using their userpage to tell us they are Roman Catholic, white and nerdy, that they drink green tea, that they signed someone's guest book, and have a supposed painting of themselves (which, obviously, isn't)? If the nominator believes Marine 69-71 is misusing Wikipedia as a webhost, perhaps they will be so kind as to remove the webhost stuff off of their userpage? I fail to see the point of this MfD. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does the nominator expect us to believe they are a whale or a whaler? It's unclear from the portrait on the userpage. Am I ragpicking too much? How would I even know? BusterD (talk) 21:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd just like to point out to all those referring to a longstanding editor who is WP:HERE, his contribution stats: [1] show 61.1% on the mainspace, 19.9% on his userspace and 10.2% on usertalk. Mztourist (talk) 06:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to be pretty obviously HERE to me, especially as many of their userspace edits are drafting articles that they later published. Elli (talk | contribs) 06:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's possible of course, his userpage is 4th most edited after his 3 "workshop"/sandboxes. Also worth noting he has a 5.5% page deletion rate. Mztourist (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Is this in compliance wihth WP:NOTWEBHOST? Probably not. But demanding that it be deleted is just being spiteful. It's not hurting anything, and yes, people who have been editing productively for 20 years have earned the right to host harmless things in their userspace. My user page is a political statement. Are you going to want to delete that next? Perhaps User:Bishonen/Bishzilla RFA needs to be purged? What about User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Shave the Wales, or for that matter Wikipedia:Best of BJAODN? Get a life, people. RoySmith (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Satire about the project is different from a user's autograph collection, which you have acknowledged is "probably not" in compliance with WP:NOTWEBHOST. Mztourist (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTWEBHOST. I'm not seeing how this benefits or improves the project, does it benefit Marine 69-71, of course it does, he's got a free WEBHOST here. If you want to make a personal webpage, please use one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet service provider, and then post a link on your userpage to that webpage, like other long-standing contributors and notable admins have. David Gerard and GorillaWarfare spring to mind. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are we doing here? This page is fine; I believe it to pass NOTWEBHOST. SWinxy (talk) 01:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Gerda Arendt. I stumbled upon this one. My rule of thumb is that if it's under a user subpage, is does not matter what's on it. I am well aware of everything on Wikipedia:User pages. It goes against my opinion. But seriously, who cares? You're going to strip this from a United States Marine veteran who has long been a net positive to the encyclopedia? "But the rules!" The rules we made? To stop only the people who are WP:NOTHERE? That's the only reason why these rules exist.

Guys, this page gets ~0 to 7 views a day. Respect your elders. This is a moral perspective. Point me to any rule under the sun and I will happily ignore it. Panini! • 🥪 17:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird. PackMecEng (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware a soapbox isn't in typically in my wheelhouse. But this one broke my heart. Sorry. Panini! • 🥪 19:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this panini, the green herb ain't oregano... SerialNumber54129 15:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I am invoking WP:IAR here. Keeping it is absolutely harmless, and it is perfectly fine to showcase one's achievements. Ca ^{talk to me!} 15:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep- Yes, I am the creator of the nominated page. I have been a contributor to Wikipedia for many years now. I have written over 800 articles and have donated hundreds of photographs because I love this project. Thanks to my work in Wikipedia I have received recognitions from the government, pentagon and so on. I never sought any type of recognition because all I wanted to do is share my knowledge.

As a Wikipedian author, I always wanted to be transparent and that is why my user page is as it is. I wrote my subpage as a private source of inspiration for me. The nominated page has been there for many years now. If I broke a rule, don't you think I would have been warned years ago?

I have hundreds of articles in my watchlist. I am not a deletions person, I use my tools to correct any vandalism going because those are the people who are hurting our positive contributions. Therefore, I kindly ask that the nominated page, which isn't a public one, be kept. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:UP. All userpages and subpages are public. If you want a "private source of inspiration" keep it on your own computer. Mztourist (talk) 16:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

keep all of the good reasons already taken so I'll just say per above. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! To clarify, while no good reasons have been presented at all, there has been a lot of chest beating about meany-meany-big-blue-meanies. Cheers! SerialNumber54129 19:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 22, 2024

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Aramea

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was: delete. ✗plicit 23:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Aramea

WikiProject Aramea was created in 2015, and through viewing the edit history, has rarely seen any edits or discussion on creation or editing of articles since that time. Additionally, many of its formerly active members were sockpuppet accounts of users that have since been blocked indefinitely. The WikiProject itself is almost an exact carbon copy of WikiProject Assyria, with the same sections, graphics, and layout. I am proposing that the WikiProject be deleted as it essentially acts as a content fork, which is one of Wikipedia's criteria for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surayeproject3 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would normally suggest keeping archive as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide#Dealing with inactive WikiProjects..... However reviewing the Page's history it seems that this is all shock puppetry.... so deletion is fine nothing to save here. Moxy🍁 18:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't think it being a "content fork" is a good justification for deletion given that only really applies to articles, and all it is is made from the same template. The real reason for deletion would be that it is inactive and hasn't done much, plus the sockpuppets, I think: the relevant policy is:

"If an inactive project never seems to have grown beyond its founding, you may consider moving it to the founder's userspace or nominating it for deletion at MfD. In general, medium or larger projects are marked as defunct rather than deleted to preserve the project's history. For more, see Wikipedia:Project namespace#Deletion of project pages."

Looking myself there has been 1 non-bot comment on the talk page, 8 years ago, by someone who was not a member of the wikiproject. There are no members and because there is no category for WikiProject aramea articles, it is unclear how many articles are associated with it. Support deletion given if someone actually wants to make this wikiproject they can make another one, and it does seem to meet the criterion of not having grown much since its founding. Mrfoogles (talk) 22:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - A WikiProject that has never had a post from a member on its project talk page in nine years and has a history of sockpuppetry is a project that is not worth keeping as a defunct project. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. For future similar interests, engage with Wikipedia:WikiProject Syria. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Old business

Everything below this point is old business; the 7-day review period that began 00:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ended today on 1 November 2024. Editors may continue to add comments until the discussion is closed but they should keep in mind that the discussion below this marker may be closed at any time without further notice. Discussions that have already been closed will be removed from the page automatically by Legobot and need no further action.

Closed discussions

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Archived debates