Talk:Nuristanis

Nuristani's of Chitral, Pakistan

The article doesnt mention the vibrant Nuristani communities that inhabit the district of Chitral in neighbooring Pakistan where many Nuristani's have settled especially after the Soviet/Russian invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. The community is a prosperous one that has enourmous economic clout and dominates many aspects of the Bazaar life.

I agree, the Nuristani are integral part of Chitral, Pakistan. Infact, several regions of Nuristan where unlawfully annexed and were part of Pakistan's Chitral district prior to being attacked by the Afghan King and forcibly converted to Islam. These regions of Nuristan used to pay tribute to the Mehtar of Chitral. Chitrali's have also begun protesting that these regions illegally occupied by Afghanistan be given back to Pakistan. Interestingly, Nuristani's are allowed to cross over freely and are welcomed in Chitral district to this day where they are an important community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.48.78 (talk) 16:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The population in Chitral is so small that its almost nonexistent. I studied Anthropology for years and went all over Asia. 216.252.17.164 (talk) 19:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC) i have already been looking at the claims for months and looked at multiple sources, and it appears they are more of gypsies during seasons only for trade, they have already mentioned their neighbors...etc and this conflict in separate pages. This is just the peoples page, all that you guys are mentioning is mentioned on the Nuristan province page, this is specifically the Nursingxmajor (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

question

An evil king??----Waxwing slain 15:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

At the beginning of the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan meaning the year 1979 December there was no King in Afghanistan but a President. That President was a Communist himself and the Communists took over the power in April of 1978 from another President in a coup. So whoever wrote something like General Issa Nooristani was second in command after the King must have mentioned another country but not Afghanistan. At the afore mentioned times the Defense Ministers were second in command and General Nooristani was never a defense minister but a general like many other generals in Afghanistan as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.80.132 (talk) 08:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

FNATICISM vs REALISTIC INFORMATION or FACTS OF HISTORY

The following information on Nurestanis, formerly the Kafirs of Hindukush is based on the admirable works of accepted authorities like Mountstuart Elphinstone, J Biddulph, Thomas Holdich, Sir George Scott Robertson, Donald N Wilber, Sir William Kerr Fraser-Tytler, M. C. Gillet etc.

Etymology of term Kafir

Kafirstan means land of the infidels in the Persian. According to the conventional etymology, the name "Kafir" derives from Arabic Kafir, commonly translated into English as "infidels" or "idolaters". Kafiristan then would be "The Land of the Infidels". This explanation would justify the renaming of the country after its Islamization.

Many historians, however, opine that the local name "Kafir" comes from Kapiś (= Kapish), the ancient Sanskrit name of the region that included historic Kafiristan; which is also given as "Ki-pin" (or Ke-pin, Ka-pin, Chi-pin) in old Chinese chronicles. That name, unrelated to the Arabic word, is believed to have, at some point, mutated into the word Kapir. This linguistic phenomenon is not unusual for this region. The name of King Kanishaka, who once ruled over this region, is also found written as "Kanerika", an example of "ś" or "sh" mutating to "r". In a similar way, Kapiś -- the name of the people of Kapiś/Kapiśa, is believed to have changed to Kapir and then Kafir . One of the dominant clan of the Kafirs till recently was known as Katir. In many languages, term Kafir is pronounced as Kapir.

The second change from Kapir to Kafir, may have occurred spontaneously, since the exchange of "p" by "f" is fairly common in Indo-European languages. It may also have been the result of confusion or intentional wordplay with the Arabic word, since the Kafirs were indeed pagans until 1895.

The derivation of Kafiristan is now fairly easy since -stan in Iranian language means country, abode or place. Thus, Kafiristan would literally mean the land or abode of the Kafir (Kapir) peoples i.e. people belonging to Kapiśa.

Today it is disputed if the term Kafir really defines a traditional ethnic group.

Characteristics of Pre-Islamisation Nurestani Society (former Kafirs)

Based on obervations of G. S. Robertson, THomas Holdich, Donald N. Wilber, HW Bellow, and some other noted investigators.

Both the Kafirs and Afghans are brigands by instinct and both are careless of human life. Perhaps the Kafirs are the worst of the two in both respects, but a Afghan makes the account more than even by his added perfidy and cunning [6] [7] [8] [9].

All the neighboring Musulman tribes have an intense hatred of the Kafirs because of the injuries the former have received at the hands of the Kafirs through the ages. The Kafirs love to dance to their war god Gish after killing Musulmans [10].

The Kafirs love to fight. Their inter-tribal hatred, sometimes, goes to the limits of absurdity, thus entirely deadening their political foresight. It is probable that there is no single tribe of Kafirs at the present day Kafirstan which is at peace with all other tribes. Some of their inter-tribal wars have continued for generations, and the one between the Kamoz and Katirs of Ramgulis went over a century [11].

The Kafirs are highly revengeful. For honor's sake, a man of any position in the clan (even the slave) having been killed by an outsider clan must be avenged by blood. No matter what, a murder has to be avenged under all circumstances [12].

Blood-feuds within a tribe do not exist, but if a fight did start, it was the duty of all witness to intervene at once. The slayer of his fellow, even by accident, has to pay a heavy compensation or else become an outcast. The stigma attaches itself to children and their marriage connexions. Kafirs have true conceptions of justice. There is no death penalty since a fighting male is too valuable a property of the whole tribe to be so wasted [13].

Though in his raids into hostile territories, whether of Kafirs or Musulmans, the Kafir spares neither men, nor women, nor even children and though, he holds human life as of very little account, and though in hunting, he appears to employ brutal methods of getting his game, yet he is not cruel by nature. Though highly passionate and wildly independent, the Kafir can be easily appeased [14].

Though exasperated to such fury by centuries of persecutions by Musulmans, the Kafirs, in general, are harmless, affectionate and kind hearted people. They are indeed a model of politeness. They are merry, playful, fond of laughter and of very social and joyous disposition. The Kafirs are splendidly loyal to their friends and are accustomed to grandest acts of self-sacrifice and bravery. Kafirs are very hospitable. They are kind even to a Musulman when they admit him as their friend or guest [15].

The Kafirs are remarkable for their cupidity. They can be easily bribed, can do anything for money. But in matters of honor, no Kafir can ever be won by any amount of cash, whatsoever [16].

Kafirs are extremely jealous of one another, no matter how they have intermarried. Kafir hates Kafir more than he hates Musulmans, which sometimes leads to internecine strife [17].

It is as natural for a Kafir to thieve, as it is for him to eat. The children are encouraged to steal [18].

Kafirs are remarkable for their reckless courage, furious bravery and towering love for freedom. Kafirs women are also extraordinarily courageous and dashing [19].

The war strategy of Kafirs is to wear down the enemy by playing purely defensive tactics. They hold positions, form little ambushes, and seek to cut off stragglers and harass the invaders in every possible way. Then when the enemy, from accumulated losses, begins to retreat, the tiger-footed Kafirs attack him on all sides like a swarm of hornets. At this point, the dogged resistance turns into furious bravery. A Kafir never fights so well as when the advantage is to his side. He plays a winning game splendidly. Each man tries to emulate the traditional heroes of his tribe and will performs some of the grandest deeds of courage and heroism to gain the admiration of his tribal [20].

The Kafir of Bashgul is ever on the raid and on watch for a chance for a Musulman's life. The killing of Musulmans is ranked the chief object of a Kafir's life since his social position is dependent on the number of Musulmans he kills. A robe of honor (a Shawl) is awarded to those who have killed four or more Musulmans [21].

The Kafirs are chiefly remarkable for their love of cattle [22].

In Kafir opinion, a good man is one who is a successful homicide, ever ready to quarrel, of an amorous disposition, a good dancer, and a good stone-quoit player[23].

The whole of the Kafir race are remarkable for their fairness and beauty of complexion [24].

A Kafir exudes impression of personal dignity, self-respect, self-confidence, strength and gracefulness [25].

Kafir society is essentially democratic and the Kafirs are theoretically all equal [26].

The Kafirs, as seen above, seem to be as degraded in many respects as it is possible for this type ever to become. If it were not their splendid courage, their domestic affections and their overpowering love of freedom, the Kafirs would indeed be a hateful people. In other respects, they are what they have been made by uncontrollable circumstances. For them, the world has not grown softer as it has grown older. Its youth could not be crueler than its present maturity, but if they had been different, the Kafirs would have been enslaved centuries ago. Their present ideas and all the associations of their history and religion are simply bloodshed, assassinations and blackmailing; yet the Kafirs, though a highly wild people, are not savages. Many of them have the heads of statesmen and philosophers. Their features are Aryans and their mental capabilities are great. Their love of decoration, their carving and their architecture all point to a time when they were higher in human scale than they are at present [27].

Nurestani Marriages

The Nurestani society is polygamous as well as exogamous. Marriage within one's own and mother's clan is prohibtied. A Nurestani mostly has more than one wife, but rarely more than five. It is a reproach to own only one wife. Marriage is a simple bargain business where a wife is purchased of her parents by settling the price. A goat is then killed and a feast is given to formalize the marriage. Nurestani takes possession of all of his dead brothers' wives. The divorce is simple as a man can always send her wife away.

Former religion of Nurestanis

Before their inhuman and forced conversion by Abdur Rahman, Kafirs, the predesoors of the Nurestanis were practitioners of ancient pre-Islamic traditions. There were lingering traces of ancestor-worship and fire-worship. The Kafir religion was a blend of Zoroastrianism rituals, Hindu beliefs, Buddhist tenets and diverse ceremonies as well as paganism reminiscent of the mythology of Greece. Imra (from Hindu Yama (=Yamaraja), Zoroastrianism Yima) was the supreme god of Kafiristan. He was the god of creation. God Moni was the chief prophet of god Imra. Gish or Great Gish was the god of war, and was extremely popular among the Bashagul Katir Kafirs. H. A. Rose in his Glossary of Tribes and Castes, identifies god Gish with the Hindu god Kishna or Krishna (Krishna appears as Gisane in Armenian). Besides, there were other gods of lesser significance. They converted to Islam in the 1880s

Nurestani women

The Nurestani (Kafir) women are remarkable for their beauty [28]. Sir Henry Rawilson comments: "The most beautiful oriental women I ever saw were Kafer women. She had beside other charms a great mass of golden hair, which, let loose and shaken covered her completely from her head like a veil [29]". However, little respect was shown to women folk except in particular cases to a few of advanced years. Usually, the women were mistresses, slaves and field-workers. Physically, they were capable of enormous labour and were very enduring. The young girls were beautiful but as they grow, their faces wear out due to harsh physical labor. While the responsibility for the defense and maintaining grazing grounds & live stock fells on the males, that of agriculture and field-work fells on the females. The women were usually considered a chattel and had no rights as against their husbands or, failing them, their male relations. They could not inherit or possess property.

Kafirs and the Kambojas

The earlier view was that the Kafirs were descendants of an once powerful people who came from the west. But Anthropological data suggests that they are a remnant of original Aryan population of Eastern Afghanistan. They appears to be a mixture of an extremely ancient element related to oldest known population of central Himalayas (the Presuns), the element with resemblance to the Kurds and a type with Nordic traits (the Siah-Posh/Wai groups) which goes back to the ancient prototype of these races preserved in the midst of Indo-Aryan ascendancy.

According to Robertson, the present dominant clans of Kafirstan, the Katirs (Kamtoz), the Kams (Kamoz) and the Wais are mainly descended from the ancient Aryan population of Eastern Afghanistan, who refused to embrace Islam in tenth century, and fled for refuge from victorious Musulmans to the hilly fastnesses of Kafirstan

Parts of Kaffirstan (Nuristan) formed a portion of the Greek strapy of the Paropamisadae in the fouth and third century BCE. The people of the region were then called Kambojas and described as of mixed Indo-Iranian descent. Possibly, they occupied much wider area then and were gradually forced to their present mountaneous fastnesses by the Muslim onslaught during medieval era. One of their dominant clans is still known as Kam or Kamoz, while the other is called Kamtoz, which remind us of the name Kamboja (Donald Wilber, W. K. Fraser Tytler, M. C. Gillett, Dr Raychaudhury, Dr S Chattopadhyaya etc).

Geographical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval India notes that the Siah-Posh tribe living in Hindukush descended from the ancient Kambojas.

Discussing the Kambojas, Dr Wilson also notes that there is an apparent trace of their (Kamboja's) name in the Camojes of Kafirstan who may have retreated to the mountains before the advance of the Turk tribes (See: Vishnu Purana, H. H. Wilson)

The physiognomic features and other physical characteristics of the Siahposh tribes resemble those of the Kamboj population of greater Panjab(Pakistan). Like the (unmixed) Kamboj, they have fairly tall stature, fair-body color, light brown or some times green eyes, brown and some times blond hair, slender and straight or acquiline noses, high physical and mental tenacity & stamina etc.

Logic of Greek influence on the Kafirs

There are some points of resemblance between the present Kafirs and the ancient Greek sacrificial observances and in some of their domestic utensils like the wooden dish stand of the Wai Kafirs. They seem to be fashioned in Grecian mould. The sports and games among the Kafirs (wrestling and shot put etc.) are said to have been practiced in the ancient Olympics. Traces of Greek influence are also often quoted as visible in Kafir music. Some further Greek cultural elements can also partly be identified in Kafiristan.

It can therefore, be fairly conjectured that some of these Kafir tribes are still influenced, as the ancient Eastern Afghanistan population was influenced by the Greeks (Robertson).

It is also stated by some that the Kafir physiognomic features follow those of the South-European characteristics.

Based on above, some writers tend to claim that the present Kafirs may have descended from the armies of Alexander the Great. But the above factors may only imply Greek cultural and social influence on the ancestors of the Kafirs and in no-way they establish any ethnic connection between the Kafirs and the Greeks.

The Greeks or Yavanas were apparently in the minority in Indian sub-continent, and the majority of ancient Kafirs were a different race from the Yavanas. Any subsequent ancient Greek influence would have been easily adopted by the Kafir ancestors because of their geographical closeness. The ancient Greeks are known to have greatly excelled in the natural sciences and medicine, and therefore, though barbarians in Brahmanical view, they were still regarded with honor on this very count. The ancient Kambojas appear to have borrowed heavily from these scientific Greeks.

It is indisputable fact of history that the Yavanas and their good ancient neighbors, the Kambojas had shared common culture and social customs like short-cropping of their head-hair (Kamboja mundah Yavana mundah), observing only two social classes such as Arya (master) and Dasa (slave) (Yonakambojaseu annesu cha panchchantimesu janapadesu dvea vanna), and non-entertainment of the Brahmins in their countries and so forth.

The present social structure of the Kafirs also follows two social classes i.e freeman and the slaves which obviously alludes to their links to the ancient Kamboja-Yona group.

The classical expression Yonekambojesu of the Buddhist texts as well as of king Ashoka's Edicts also betrays very close relationships between the Kambojas and the Yonas or Yavanas.

Thus, the ancient Kambojas were indeed very deeply influenced by the ancient Greeks or the Yavanas, and this fact is still visible in an isolated community like the Kafirs, as has been noted by George Robertson and some other observers.

It is also an indisputable fact of history that the ancient Kambojas had followed republican constitution. The isolated Kafir society is essentially still democratic and the Kafirs are theoretically all equal as reported by Robertson. This fact again seems to connect present Kafirs with the ancient Kambojas.

The shot put and wrestling argument suggested by some to establish ethnic connection between the Kafirs and the Greeks also does not carry conviction.

The ancient Kambojas and Yonas are both known to have been good wrestlers as is corroborated by Mahabharata evidence (Tata Yavana. Kamboja......niya.yuddhah. kushalah...See: MBH 12/101/5).

And, the shot put has also been very popular in Panjab including the Kamboj population since ancient times.

Similarly, the stone-quoit is also popular game among the Kafirs as it is also among the Kambojs and other people of Panjab.

Since very close social and cultural intimacies are known to have existed between the Yavanas and the ancient Kambojas, this must have led to very intimate cultural and social admixture among these two neighboring tribes. The question of Greek influence on Kafir music can therefore, be very easily explained in view of the above scenario.

Hence, to attribute Greek lineage to the present Kafirs based on flimsy grounds like these, can at best, only be farfetched.

The Siah-Posh tribe of the Kafirs is stated by numerous scholarship to be the modern descendants of ancient Kambojas (See: references at the end).

Ancient Roots of the Nurestanis

The Siah-posh tribes of the Hindukush ranges, who till recently were collectively known as Kamoges or Kamojis [30] (Sanskrit Kambojis or Kambojas), are stated to have been a remain of a considerable ancient people among whom were original Kashmerians and a greater part of Badakshan and Kabol as far as Deggan tribes...and on the southern face of the higher ridges of Himalaya extending to an unknown distance...Though whole of their pristine population being subjected to Muslim conquerors in the middle ages, and having mixed with them, they have now lost their pristine individuality of national character but still among the Kabulis, in particular, it is still not unfrequent to observe heads and figures that might serve for models to the sculptors who would portray a Jupiter or a Mars according to the refined idealism of the ancient Greeks. The Kafirs have oval faces, their brows are well-arched and the nose and mouth even more refined than the Greeks. They are still fairer, generally, with lighter hair and gray eyes [31]. Blending with the nearest black-haired tribes, the ancestors of the Kamoges are believed to have given rise to ancient Persians and with the faired-haired on the north, they are said to have produced the handsome tribes of the Goths [32] [33]. The name Kamoges or Kamojis apparently reminds one of the ancient Kambojas [34] living in Hindukush, Pamirs as well as in Badakshan. (See: Kamboja Location). The modern Kamboj or Kamboh people of northern India are stated to have descended from the ancient Kambojas and are believed to belong to the same ancient stock as the Kamoges or Kamojis of Hindukush [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48][49] [50].

Kafirs or Nurestanis in history

The first Muslim appellation of Kafirs occurs in 1020 CE in the writings of the historians of Mahmud of Ghazni.

Musulman historian Ibn al-Hussain Baihaki makes second reference to (Siah-Posh) Katirs and calls them Hindus. He claims that 'all the Hindu Kators were brought under the rule of Sultan Masud' (1033 CE) [51].

Third reference occurs in Tuzak-i-Timuri where the Kafirs came into conflict with Sultan Timur (1399 CE). Timur found the Siah-Posh tribes (Katirs and Kams) apparently holding a kingdom extending from the frontiers of Kashmir to mountains of Kabul and containing numerous villages and towns with capital at Jorkal. The ruler is stated to be Adalshu, Uda or Udasu. Timur describes the Katirs as men of a powerful frame and fair complexion, idolaters for most part, and speaking a tongue distinct from Turki, Persian, Hindi or Kashmiri. Timur attacked the Katir strongholds reaching as far as Kashtur while prince Rustam advanced into the territories of the Kam Siahposh [52].

In fifteenth century, Sultan Mahmud, descendant of Sultan Timur led expedition against the Siah-Poshes and thereby earned the title of Ghazi.

Moghul emperor Babur notes the Panjshir Musulmans as paying tribute to their neighbors, the Siah-Posh Katir.

Moghul emperor Akbar sent his son Jahangir in 1581 against the Siah-Posh Kafirs of the mountains of Katir.

Abu'l Fazl, in his history of Timur's expeditions, speaks of the Hindúán-i-Katir, a country which is described as bounding territories of Buner, Swat and Bajaur on the north.

In 1839, the Kafirs sent a deputation to Sir William Macnaghten in Jalalabad claiming relationship with the fair skinned British troops who had invaded the country.

The people are mentioned in the story The Man Who Would Be King

Following their conquest and convert to Islam in 1895 by Emir Abdur Rahman Khan, the Kafiristan Kafiri people disappear. On its place the radical Islamic Nuristani culture developed out.

References

Sources for future article expansion

The Wikipedia readers must note that all the material of this article is based on observations from several noted commentators on Kafirs/Nurestanis such as:

1. The Kafirs of Hindukush, 1896, by George Scott Robertson, Arthur David McCormick, (Oxford in Asia Historical Reprints)

2. Afghanistan: its people, its society, its culture (Survey of world cultures), 1962, by Donald Newton Wilber.

3. Tribes of the Hindoo Koosh by John Biddulph (Paperback - Jan 15, 2004)

4.The gates of India: Being an historical narrative by Thomas Hungerford Holdich (Unknown Binding - 1977)

5. The Indian Borderland, 1880-1900 by Thomas Hungerford Holdich (Paperback - April 12, 2001)

6. An account of the Kingdom of Caubul and its dependencies in Persia, Tartary, and India, (comprising a view of the Afghaun nation, and a history of the ... Entdeckungsgeschichte und Geographie Asiens), 1969 Edition, by Mountstuart Elphinstone

7. Proceedings (1869, 1879, 1881, 1884...)... by Royal Geographical Society (Great Britain), Norton Shaw, Francis Galton, William Spottiswoode...

8. The Religions of the Hindukush: The Religion of the Kafirs : The Pre-Islamic Heritage of Afghan Nuristan (The Religions of the Hindukush) by Karl Jettmar (Paperback - Mar 1986)

9. A History of Kafferistan: Socio-economic and Political Conditions of the Kaffers, 1989, Amar Singh Chohan.

10. etc etc. [Unsigned]

The Bashgeli kafirs & their language By Gottlieb William Leitner

Kafiristan: the Bashgeli Kafirs and their language By Gottlieb William Leitner

The Bashgeli Kafirs & Their Language (1880)

Kafiristan: The Bashgeli Kafirs and Their Language (1880)

Notes on the Bashgalī (Kāfir) Language By John Davidson

Bashgali Dictionary: An Analysis of Colonel J. Davidson's Notes on the Bashgali Language By Sten Konow

The Káfirs of the Hindu-Kush (1900)

Kafiristan (October 24, 1884) —Rajmaan (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

See also: "Kafiristan" in the EB, 9th ed., Vol. XIII, and its sources although obviously these old books should be used (carefully) for historical data and not current information. — LlywelynII 01:58, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Edit War

The edit war here is nothing but FANATICISM vs FACTS OF HISTORY. Fanaticism is being let loose here by a guy or two to suppress genuine historical information which is based on the works of notable scholarship, merely for personal and subjective reasons. History contains both sweet and bitter pills for the audience. The balanced article must shed light on strenghths and weaknesses of a historical people ...some facts may not be likable but history is history and one's likes and dislikes have no place in factual and realistic historical accounts. Funny thing is that a guy or two here don't want to digest the weakinesses of the former Kafir society but would welcome only some thing good said about it. This approach would simply amount to misrepresent history of an important ancient people and shall not be tolerated simply to appease bigotry and fanaticism. If the deletion of articles on the Kafirs, the predecessors of the modern Nuristani people, continue to go unchecked, they will definitely be revived. The factual history will not be allowed to be suppressed since the endavour is inspired by mere fanaticism and bigotry.

Sze cavalry01 17:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

First off, you're adding information from a deleted article. The article was deleted per the consensus of the community, which means that its content was deemed unfit for inclusion anywhere. Do not add content from deleted articles. I'm sorry, but your understanding of Wikipedia's policy of NPOV seems to be deeply flawed. Even when backed by sources, we do not call ethnic groups "brigands" and the like. Not only is slanderous language like this fundamentally biased, but it sounds completely outdated. A Wikipedia article on Nuristani people or their forebearers isn't out to comment on their character as a group. It's simply unencyclopedic. Another point is that Wikipedia is not a quote farm, and should not rely on so heavily on large passages of direct quotes from primary sources. That's certainly not good history writing, and in fact may violate copyright laws. VanTucky ^Talk 21:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well put. Also, there's nothing wrong with letting the facts speak for themselves -- be they representing "strengths" or "weaknesses." But that is not what you are doing, Sze_cavalry01. How can an entire ethnic group of people be "brigands by instinct"? This is not something that can be supported scientifically because all individuals are different. Perhaps some have "brigand-like" qualities, but all of them do not. Also, no one is a brigand by instinct. One can learn "brigand-like" traits, if you will, but one cannot be a brigand by instinct. We know what traits are instinctual thanks to various scientific disciplines (i.e. biology, sociology). "Hunger," "thirst," "preservation of life," "empathy" -- these are instinctual traits. "Brigand-like," on the other hand, is not a natural born or instinctual trait.

So, basically, just because some 19th century guy says these people are "brigands by instinct" and "love to fight" and are "careless of human life" does not mean these things are true. How can you say that an entire ethnic group is "careless of human life"? How can you say that an entire ethnic group "loves to fight"? How can you believe these broad generalizations? Broad generalizations like these are the foundations of discrimination and have no basis in fact. That's why science has weeded them out and disregards them. If someone epirically proves them true, then surely they would be accepted by the scientific community. But that has not happened (and I doubt it ever will). All people are different -- that is, each individual is different. One can make some generalizations without characterizing a group too broadly, but one must be very careful when doing so. For if one is not careful, one will characterize people that are not one way or another -- in other words, one will have characterized too broadly. For these reasons, one cannot say that all Italians are one way, or all blacks are one way, or all Muslims are one way, or all Jews are one way, or all Catholics are one way or all Chinese are one way, or all Indians are one way, etc. (you get the point). You cannot say these things because they can never be scientifically proven because individuals are different.

Sze_cavalry01, it seems that you will believe anything George Scott Robertson wrote. So if you dug up a book by Robertson saying that your particular ethnic group is comprised of brigands who "love to fight" and are "careless of human life" and are "brigands by instinct," would you believe him? I would really like to know your answer to that question. I would hope, though, that you would not believe him and that you would recognize that Robertson was making broad, sweeping generalizaions that were not scientifically provable. You would know this because you were not a "brigand by instinct," you did not "love to fight" and you were not "careless of human life." ask123 17:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Strong agreement with VanTucky and ask123. What is most confusing to me, Sze cavalry01, is that you are not a newbie who doesn't know about Wikipedia but have in fact been here for a long time. I mean, come on! Facts of history? "It is as natural for a Kafir to thieve, as it is for him to eat." "In Kafir opinion, a good man is one who is a successful homicide." Do you seriously want people who look up an article about a group of people to read nonsense like this? Have you ever seen anything so racist on Wikipedia? It is not the nineteenth century anymore, this stuff can't be taken seriously. Robbie098 01:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Relationship with non-IE peoples and languages

I recently studied kom lexicon, thanks to Richard Strand's great site about Nuristan [2]. Nuristani people visually resemble neighbouring persians and tajiks but tend to have more european features (such as bright hair, eyes & fair skin). But I'm not gonna discuss genetics. I'm more interested in linguistic borrows from non-iranian and non-indic languages. Here are some of the words borrowed from turkic languages (such as Uzbek and Turkmen languages):

1. Kinship:
2. Vov - Grandfather, derived from old-turkic 'Baba' or 'Papa' - "ancestor", "great grandfather". (today, turkic stone statues in Ukrainian and Central Asian steppes are called "stone babas")
3. Vâ'i - Grandmother, probably derived from turkic 'apa', 'abi', 'ebe', 'eve' - "grandmother", "aunt" (but now also used as polite adress among Central Asian turkic peoples towards elderly and middle-aged women). (I also should note that first 'a' letter is obsolete in nuristani version which is typical for borrowed turkic words in IE-languages)
4. Nâv'o - Grandson, borrowed from turkic word for grandson - 'nəvə' (azeri) and more primitive 'nemere' (kazakh, sounds [v], [b] & [m] are related).
5. Sus - sister, probably derived from turkic 'çaç'; 'süs' (chuv.) - "hair". However I must admit that IE word "sister" can be of common (eurasiatic or nostratic) origin with turkic 'çaç'.
6. Music:
7. l'âalu - song, music; it is said that it's derived from PIE '*lalli' but I doubt that PIE language is reliable enough since IE languages are generally flexive (except few) and very diverse, unlike turkic and finnic languages which are mostly agglutinative and tend to be more 'stable', this why locating more or less primitve version of initial turkic language isn't that problematic than locating common proto-language of slavs or germans. Anyway this word looks like linguistic OOPART since it resembles finnic word "song" - 'laulu', 'laullu', 'lavl', and hungarian "dal" ([l] & [d] are related, probably result of "turkization"). As far as I know, this word is not presented in indo-aryan and germanic languages.
8. Animals:
9. kuř'i - dog, kuchekk in Baloch, probably borrowed from turkic 'göpek' or 'köpek' - "dog" or tibetan 'khʷyi'; 'gui' (kachin).
10. kâcor (or katsor, kajor) - mule, turkic 'qatır' - donkey, mule.
11. ź'uk - yak; azeri - sarlıq, yak, qaytağ; uzbek - qo'tos; kazakh - qodas.
12. pš'âš - cat, derived from turkic 'müş'; 'mǔsıq' (kaz.); 'pişik' (az.);'kuʃak' (chuv.); 'kóška' (east slav.).
13. Speech:
14. vâll'â - speak; probably related to estonian 'valjusti' - "aloud".
15. viri - word; also can be related to estonian 'vali' - "loud" as well as english "word".

These are just examples. We can explain presence of turkic and sino-tibetan loanwords but can't explain presence of words that resemble uralic equivalents. Only reasonable explanation is that ancestors of finnic peoples could migrate to north-eastern Europe through territory of modern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Presence of finnic words in iranian language is very unusual. If such migration could be in past then it could happen only in prehistoric times. Iliassh (talk)

Did you consider the fact that the Indo-Iranian Urheimat is located next to where Uralic languages are/were spoken? Azalea pomp (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

A Goldmine of Misinformation on Nuristan

I cannot begin to address the amount of fantasy and misinformation that I have found in the Wikipaedia articles on Nuristan. Most of the people who are contributing to these articles have no first-hand experience with Nuristan, its people, or its languages. I will not comment on the misguided remarks posted by amateurs on the origins of the Nuristanis or the etymologies of certain words. But I must warn all that the information on Nuristan posted on the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School website, used as a source for some of the Wikipaedia articles, is egregiously incorrect. In particular, the chart of Nuristani tribes, prepared for the NPS by Courage Associates at great taxpayer expense, borders on fraudulence. Readers of these so-called sources should realize that they are getting false information.—Richard F. Strand, 174.26.188.83 (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Need more details than that. — LlywelynII 01:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Unrealistic picture

i think a picture of a little kid is unrealistic, and from my visit there, majority of Nuristan looks like typical southern Asia, dark featured and tanned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.17.164 (talk) 19:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

IS anyone going to switch the picture??? Nursingxmajor (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

if anyone is interested let me know, because i think it is biased, and i visited the region many times personally, and have available photots Nursingxmajor (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

is there any suggestions, contact me Nursingxmajor (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

WRONG population number

from my search that population number is the number of all the people living in that region, not of the the natives and specific to Nuristan people descendent — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.17.164 (talk) 03:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Genetics

No way Nuristanis should have that high R1a percentages if they are a Dardic group. It maybe because they're population is low which attributes to high amounts but i cannot find any other source on their genetics. The only one we have is from Harber but it is not sourced here instead the source used here is from an outdated link talking about the Y chromosome of pathans which does not mention the Y type of nuristanis. Akmal94 (talk) 11:17, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Merge from Siah-Posh Kafirs

which may refer to all Nuristanis or to a subgroup but in any case shouldn't be sitting around with its laundry-list of sources under its long-outdated 19th-century name. — LlywelynII 01:58, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 10:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Merge discussion

Safed-Posh Kaffirs is another outdated classification that should be merged into the main article. PepperBeast (talk) 02:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. PepperBeast (talk) 17:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

"Kafirism" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Kafirism. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 17#Kafirism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:23, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Nuristanis related to Slavs?

Over 72% have halpogroupe r1a1a, which is pretty sure that they must be genetically closely related to the Slavs. https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/r1a1a-conquers-the-worldin-a-few-pulses

77.9.5.240 (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

July 2023

@Editorkamran: Hi, it is regarding this removal. The source talks about Kata-vari dialect speakers, which may be why it was added. Do "Kata-vari" speakers identify as Nuristani? If yes then it can be re-added, with another better source explicitly mentioning the relation. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Nuristani languages and Nuristani people should not be confused with each other because Nuristanis are ethnic group. That is why source must clearly mention existence of Nuristanis in Chitral, Pakistan. Editorkamran (talk) 10:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran: This source (page 51) explicitly mentions the presence of Nuristanis in Chitral and the language they speak - Kata-vari dialect. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That's a reliable source. Information added. Editorkamran (talk) 12:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran: Thanks. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)