Talk:Cádiz

Idol of Cadiz

How is there no mention of the Idol of Cadiz? The gold plated bronze statue built by Phoenicians, destroyed by the Moors; standing 180 feet high for more than 1000 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.191.229 (talk) 11:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Kindly sign your posts.

Added, with sources, although it was (almost) certainly not Phoenician since it was entirely omitted by every source in classical antiquity. It is interesting that it seems to have been a Sudanese African god (possibly with Poseidon's trident) but it really needs its own page (with redirects from Sanam Qadis and Salamcadis) to hold all the different versions of the legends. Just mentioned the main ones here. — LlywelynII 02:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No. This kind of idol is usually associated with Tartessian divinities. Here's some more info: http://www.museosdeandalucia.es/cultura/museos/MCA/index.jsp?redirect=S2_3_1_1.jsp&idpieza=90&pagina=1 124.35.178.162 (talk) 05:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

The author of Kitdbu-l-Ja'rafiyah has furnished us with details concerning the tower of Qadis. We shall quote his own words. "In this city," he says, (meaning Qadis) "there formerly stood a square tower, upwards of one hundred cubits high, and built of large blocks of stone, admirably placed one on the top of another, and fastened together by hooks of brass. On the top of the tower was a square pedestal of white marble, measuring four spans, and on it a statue representing a human being, so admirably executed in form, proportions, and face, that it looked more like a living man than an inanimate block. His face was turned towards the Western Sea; he had his back to the north; the left arm extended, and the fingers closed, with the exception of the forefinger, which he held in a horizontal position, pointing towards the mouth of that sea which issues out of the Ocean, and lies between Tangiers and Tarifa, being known by the name of Bahru-z-zokak (the Madiq Jabal Tariq). His right arm was close to the body, as if holding his garments tightly, and in the right hand he bore a stick, with which he pointed towards the sea. Some authors pretend that what he held were keys, but it is a mis-statement; I saw the idol often, and could never discover any thing else but the above mentioned stick, which he held in his right hand in a vertical position, and somewhat raised from the ground; besides, I am assured by the testimony of trustworthy people, who were present or assisted at the pulling down of this idol, that it was a short stick, of about twelve spans in length, having at the end some teeth like a curry-comb. Who was the builder of this tower, with the idol on the top, does not sufficiently appear. Mes'udi, in his 'Golden Meadows,' attributes its construction to al-Jabbar, the same who built the seven idols in the country of Zinj, which are one in sight of the other: but the most probable option seems to be that it was built by some of the ancient kings of al-Andalus to serve as a guide to navigators, from the fact of the idol having his left arm extended towards the Bahru-z-zokak (straits), and pointing to the mouth, as if he was showing the way. There were not wanting people who thought this idol to be made of pure gold; for whenever the rising or setting sun fell on the statue it sent forth rays of light, and shone in the brightest hues like the collar of a ring-dove, blue being the color which prevailed. Thus placed on the top of the tower the idol was like a signal for the Muslim navigators to go in and out of the Ocean, and whoever wanted to sail from any port in the Mediterranean to places in al-Maghreb, such as Lisbon, and others, had only to approach the tower, and then put up the sails, and make for the port whither they wished to go, whether Sale, Anfa, or any other in the western coast of Africa. When in after times this idol was pulled down, it ceased of course to be a signal for navigators: its demolition happened thus. In the year 540, at the beginning of the second civil war, 'Ali bin 'Isa bin Maymun, who was Admiral of the Fleet, revolted at Qadis, and declared himself independent. Having heard the inhabitants say that the idol on the top of the tower was made of pure gold, his cupidity was raised, and he gave orders for its immediate removal. The statue was found to be made of brass, covered only with a thin coat of gold, which, when removed, produced twelve thousand gold dinars. It is a general opinion among Andalusian and African Muslims that this idol exercised a sort of spell over the sea, but that the charm ceased the moment it was thrown down. They account for it in the following manner. There used once to be in the Ocean some large vessels which the Andalusians called karakir, provided with a square sail in front, and another behind; they were manned by a nation called Majus, people of great strength, determination, and much practice in navigation, and who at their landing on the coasts destroyed every thing with fire and sword, and committed unheard-of ravages and cruelties, so that at their appearance the inhabitants fled with their valuables to the mountains, and the whole coast was depopulated. The invasions of these barbarians were periodical—they took place every six or seven years; the number of their vessels was never less than forty, it sometimes amounted to a hundred; they devoured any one they found on the sea. The tower that I have described was known to them, and, following the direction pointed at by the idol, they were enabled to make at all times for the mouth of the straits, and enter the Mediterranean, ravage the coast of al-Andalus, and the islands close to it, sometimes carrying their depredations as far as the coasts of Syria. But when the idol was destroyed by the command of 'Ali bin Maymun, as I have already stated, no more was heard of these people, nor were their karakir (vessels) seen in these seas, with the exception of two that were wrecked on the coast, one at Marsu-l-Majus (the port of the Majus), and the other close to the promontory of al-Aghar."--MuslimKnight786 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Cadiz → Cádiz – Frommers has moved from Cadiz (2007) to Cádiz (2012). That might sound like a strange rationale for a move, but 90% of English sources with full fonts since 2000 are treating the city as an endonym "Cádiz" rather than having an English exonym "Cadiz". Although Cádiz harbour was where Sir Francis Drake "singed the king of Spain's beard" in 1587, and 10 years later the British landed and burnt the city to the ground in 1596, it was never a British possession and, whether this is a factor or not, has never had an "English name." Also WP:AT consistency with Province of Cádiz. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Mexico, Peru, Aragon and other well-known Spanish place names that have been established in English without the accent marks. This city has an English pronunciation distinct from the Spanish, and the orthography reflects that. Dohn joe (talk) 17:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Those are countries (Aragon was at least), this is a city - all Spanish cities on en.wp are fully spelled (I don't know of any exceptions except this one) - compare "He survived the English attack on Cádiz and secretly returned to Peru in 1598." or "Don José Sáenz de Santa María, that distinguished member of Cádiz's enlightened community, was not from Spain but from Mexico, or rather from New Spain". Some evidence will be needed to argue that 90% of English sources are wrong. As for pronunciation Britannica article "Cádiz" gives no hint that there is an "English pronunciation," and Frommers 2012 says "Cádiz (pronounced “Cah-deeth”) was founded, according to legend, by Hercules himself some 3,000 years ago." In ictu oculi (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support: It is about time that Wikipedia caught up with reality, rather than perpetuating out of date spellings that date back to when typewriters did not have accent symbols. In ictu oculi argues the case for a move well. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support. As far as I know, there's only one Spanish city with an actual exonym, and that's Seville/a. (And San Sebastian? That one I do think should be without the accent...) Anyway, I can see dropping the accent from a city like Barcelona (if it had one) since we'd have tons of English-language sources that do, but from a city with as little a footprint in the English language as Cadiz? Let's keep it. Red Slash 02:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support; more accurate spelling. bobrayner (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• When this comes up again, oppose. There are far worse offenders (including almost every Vietnamese article in the encyclopedia), but this isn't the actual WP:ENGLISH form of the name which is what we should be using. I.i.c. was kind enough to provide links and justifications for xer points, but they just serve to show the numbers were so cherry picked as to be labelled marasquino. A full 10% of sources using Cadiz even when they bother to accent Malaga doesn't speak to the unaccented form being uncommon, let alone "only 10% of English sources with full fonts"; it speaks to it being so very common that even sources preferring endonyms know to avoid it (at least as of 2013). Meanwhile, the overarching policy for Wikipedia pages is explicitly to support English exonyms regardless of local preferences.
  
  Obviously willing to defer if there's an overarching policy on Spanish names (like the Vietnamese ones) but that really just means that I should take the argument to the relevant policy board instead of bothering this article's talk page. It's still a local consensus trying to avoid the more HELPFUL use of WP:COMMON names in favor of the WP:WRONG version. Every page that does something like this just pushes us one step closer to having to use pinyin tones for any Chinese word or name on every page in the encyclopedia.
  
  Also, fwiw, BDD may have noticed the very many votes against this name in the discussion above but doesn't seem to have indicated taking them into account. — LlywelynII 11:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Lol

"More recently, some English speakers hypercorrect and attempt to employ the Spanish lisp"

What a retarded piece of information. What is "the Spanish lisp"? A lisp is "a speech impediment in which a person misarticulates sibilants ([s], [z], [ts], [dz]), ([ʃ], [ʒ], [tʃ], [dʒ]).". How is the Spanish sound /θ/ misarticulated in that name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.69.224 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

First, Dude, "retarded" is not the preferred nomenclature. Second, if you were actually curious, we have an article on the Spanish lisp and you can read up on it. Third, there's nothing wrong with the sound /θ/ in and of itself, but the Spanish use of it in place of every sibilant in their language is definitionally lisping. — LlywelynII 09:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

You should have taken your own advice and read the article you've linked yourself. The "Spanish lisp" is an urban legend. Spanish speakers can generally pronounce [s] perfectly well. Only the ceceo found in a few places in southern Spain even approaches a "lisp", and is heavily stigmatised. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Cádiz

Cádiz is from Arabic قادس (Qādis), from Latin Gades Bompanigcc (talk) 08:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

So, Moors just took Latin name? Why is this comment here? Boo Boo (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)