Talk:Deputy Prime Minister of Canada

Replacement of PM

A user removed this text:

"The deputy prime minister is responsible for running the country when the prime minister is out of the country, and in case of the death or resignation of the prime minister the deputy prime minister takes over the position." saying it wasn't true.

What is the procedure for replacement upon the death of a prime minister? Rmhermen 20:51, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)

The Governor General takes over the duties of the Prime Minister, but the GG will act quickly to appoint a new PM. According to convention, the GG appoints whoever she thinks will best "enjoy the confidence of the House", that is, can get bills through the House of Commons. She will consult with the surviving cabinet ministers before making her choice, but the final decision is up to her. The deputy PM will probably be a leading candidate, but not the only one.--Indefatigable 07:53, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Deputy Minister to the Deputy PM

Since the Deputy Prime Minister is a cabinet member, does she get a deputy minister? I've never heard of a Deputy Minister of the Deputy Prime Minister, but it seems like there would be one. --Arctic Gnome 20:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

NO, duty ministers are with respective deparments. Example' Finance Minister & Deputy Finance Minister. The DPM isn't a Department head. GoodDay 23:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm not sure. See Deputy Minister. GoodDay 00:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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Use of capital letters in the titles of Canadian federal government ministers

This page, as with others relating to Canadian federal government ministers, fails to use capital letters when referring to the title and office in question. To clarify, 'deputy prime minister of Canada (dpm)' instead of 'Deputy Prime Minister of Canada (DPM) The websites for the Government of Canada and the Office of the Prime Minister themselves use capitalisation; and, so do the media in Canada and internationally.

I therefore ask why has the trend occurred. I have corrected said issue before (then only on the Prime Minister's page) on only for it to be reversed. Please advise.

Mrsolan22 (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Deputy prime minister in the context of Wikipedia and other encyclopedia/journalistic settings is used as a common noun instead of a proper noun. See MOS:JOBTITLES.

WildComet (talk) 01:45, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Page move.

The article's title should be at Deputy Prime Minister of Canada. GoodDay (talk) 02:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Joeyconnick: could you please clarify? It appears MOS:JOBTITLES would apply in this case re: "When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description". Seems that this is the standard across the rest of the site. Thanks, WildComet (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Only capitalized if it's used as a title before a person's name. I believe you've indicated the same above. There are a lot of vocal holdouts on the "must capitalize everything" front but you'll see we're gradually moving away from capitalizing every single office ever just because it's sometimes used as a title. Article names should nearly always be in sentence case unless they are the name of a work. In this particular case, the deputy pm is not even an official thing, just a sometimes convention, so the notion it's a proper noun or name of some sort is even weaker. —Joeyconnick (talk) 08:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe so, it is the formal title of the entity in question (deputy PM), is a title/position in and of itself, not plural, not preceded by a modifier and is not a reworded description; checks all the boxes to be capitalized in MOS:JOBTITLES. Thanks, WildComet (talk) 06:24, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

In the event that the Prime Minister is unable to perform the functions of their office

These orders in council may be of use to any editor wanting to improve the section on succession. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 19:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@FollowTheTortoise: can you provide citation? Link is broken. —WildComet ^talk 05:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Whoops! My mistake. There are quite a few of them, all titled "Acting Ministers Minute" but it seems that that search term isn't represented in the link. The most recent one is 2021-0073. I hope that they help! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 16:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I've had a stab at rewriting the section on succession, using sources. I'm not Canadian, but I hope that it's okay! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I've also renamed the section, to hopefully make it slightly more accurate. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to use the capitalized form. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:14, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Deputy prime minister of Canada → Deputy Prime Minister of Canada – There was no RM, to move article to its current title. GoodDay (talk) 03:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

• @GoodDay and Ahecht: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
• MOS:JOBTITLES. --User:Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 05:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
• Irregardless, there still should've been an RM on it. GoodDay (talk) 06:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  There's no requirement for uncontroversial moves. The move occurred 10 months ago, and nobody has complained before this. Why are you just complaining now? You clearly noticed the move in October, and you even moved it to the current title yourself a few minutes later. And BTW, there's no such word as "Irregardless". — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 09:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  "A few minutes later", is October 2020? I didn't move the article to Deputy prime minister of Canada, period. In October 2020, I was trying to move it back to Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, but messed up by mistakenly moving it to Deputy Prime minister of Canada. GoodDay (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps you could do more reading and less arguing. Follow the link. It says "a few minutes later", by the way, not "a few minutes ago". If you follow the link, you will see (I hope) that in that edit, you moved the article from Deputy Prime minister of Canada to the current title. The current title is Deputy prime minister of Canada, period. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 17:58, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  When was my erroneous move made? I didn't intend for it to be the current title, btw. GoodDay (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  FOLLOW THE LINK. You made the move (to correct your mistake of 02:51, 30 October 2020) at 02:59, 30 October 2020. And I did not say it was erroneous, only that you ... moved it to the current title yourself. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 18:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps you should fix up your comment (above) "and you even moved it to the current title yourself a few minutes later", via linking to "a few minutes later". GoodDay (talk) 18:45, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps. Except that I cannot for the life of me comprehend what you are talking about. I did link to your edit in the phrase "a few minutes later". I have quadruple-checked and that link really, really does go to the diff I'm talking about, namely, the one in which you changed the page title to Deputy prime minister of Canada. I have painstakingly detailed the three relevant edits on my talk page in response to your request there. If these two prongs don't lead to better comprehesion, I don't know what else to do. Happily, it probably does not matter at all. Not in the least. I'm becoming sorry I mentioned it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 20:23, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Look at your 9:36 post. First part correctly mentions (10 months ago), but latter part links with the name "a few minutes later". Nothing wrong with you link, but something wrong with the 'name' of your link. GoodDay (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  No, because the "few minutes later" is a few minutes after the link before it. Ten months ago you renamed the page (showing that you clearly noticed the move in October), and a few minutes later (still ten months ago, naturally) you changed it back. If that's not clear, then we need to change to Esperanto or Klingon or something. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:06, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  You & I aren't reading your post, the same way. So, we'll leave it at that. GoodDay (talk) 21:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:JOBTITLES (and all the English rules behind it). — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 09:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps you better inform Deputy Prime Minister of Australia, Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Vice President of the United States, First Minister of Scotland, First Minister of Wales etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 16:07, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, we are all shocked that some pages on Wikipedia are not perfect. I do not consider it a valid argument to not fix Page X because Pages A, B and C are broken. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 18:00, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  By all means, go forward & open up RMs on those & other office page articles, where required. If you think they should be moved. GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  PS - At least going the RM route, is better then unilaterally moving the page. GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  @JohnFromPinckney: Can you please look at my comment below and its quote from MOS:JOBTITLES? I don't understand how you think that MOS:JOBTITLES does not support this proposal. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:52, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Position reversed; my !vote is below. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 03:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:JOBTITLES the title is capitalized, this article is abotu teh people holding the office not the office itself—blindlynx (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
• Tentative support: Is this any different in spirit from Vice President of the United States? My impression is that MOS:JOBTITLES would support this move, since it is an article about a formal title: "capitalized ... when a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  No, it is not any different. I think that it should be Vice president of the United States. See, if it helps, the first sentence of that article, which, per MOS:JOBTITLES, is cased correctly (and not just for the vice president). — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:06, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  And you know what? I may have to rethink this. I'm suddenly not so sure here. 8-O — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  If you or anybody else can 'move' those articles I've mentioned & others, successfully (i.e no resistance)? I shall be amazed. GoodDay (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, these do tend to require some discussion, but I think there is a greater degree of consensus about it recently (since about two years ago). Notice, for example, that "Prime Minister of X" titles all seem to now consistently use uppercase 'M' (and Prime Minister of Canada in particular), while the plural is lowercase (as in List of prime ministers of Canada). See also the RM discussions at Talk:Vice President of the United States § Requested move 6 August 2019 and Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 13 § Requested move 27 July 2019. The reason the first sentence of Vice President of the United States uses lowercase is that the first sentence starts with "The", so the title is "preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article)". You can see exactly the same pattern in the first sentence of Prime Minister of Canada and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks for the nudge, BarrelProof (and others). I'm a bit embarrassed to change from "oppose per JOBTITLES" to "support per JOBTITLES", but I think it's the right way to go. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 03:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Both MOS:JOBTITLES and consistency with similarly structured titles (Prime Minister of Canada, Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Vice President of the United States, etc.) support this move. Adumbrativus (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support, per JOBTITLES. The title of the article is "a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description" and should therefore be capitalized. It is trivially but not meaningfully true that 'Deputy' is a modifier; it's best understood here as a part of the title itself. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:JOBTITLES after thinking about this a bit more. The article title should, as our guidance says, be capped as the title or position in and of itself. Further, I have just now added the parenthetical text (for example, as an article title) to the guidance, in the hopes of avoiding this same question over and over, although (1) I am unsure if this is allowed in the middle of an RfC, and (2) I have no idea whether or how fast it will be reverted. IAC, take that (attempted) edit as a sign of my conviction that capped is the right way to go for the article titles. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 03:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:JOBTITLES. It's not a formal title, it does not represent a department, it's got a modifier, etc. —Joeyconnick (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

  Not that I'm going to loose any sleep over it. But, why did you just (moments ago) notify MOS:BIO about this RM? GoodDay (talk) 20:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

  Is it not the formal title? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:34, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

  I think you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what "formal title" means. It's not a constitutionally defined role, no, but neither is anything else in cabinet besides the prime minister itself — but it is still a title, in exactly the same way as any other cabinet position is still a title. The constitution doesn't set down in stone that there has to be a Minister of Revenue, for example, but the Minister of Revenue certainly still holds a title by virtue of being the Minister of Revenue — its lack of constitutional status just means there's no rule that a prime minister can't rename it or merge it with another department, and doesn't mean that it fails to exist as a title. Bearcat (talk) 12:15, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - It's a proper noun and the formal title. See https://deputypm.canada.ca/en PsionicBarnstormerExpress (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.